65 GS 4 speed and flywheel for sale on e bay

[35chevcoupe]

Not mine .
Hey all , just incase anyone is looking there is a 65 GS 4 speed on e bay . The same guy also has a listing for a flywheel also .
I believe this is the same guy I bought my 65 from .

[Loren At 65GS]

This the one ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HOLY-GRAIL-4-a-GS-1965-BUICK-GS-FACTORY-BORG-WARNER-T10-4-SPEED-TRANSMISSION/264704372327?hash=item3da19c2e67:g:4e8AAOSw1aNem4jg

[35chevcoupe]

This the one ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HOLY-GRAIL-4-a-GS-1965-BUICK-GS-FACTORY-BORG-WARNER-T10-4-SPEED-TRANSMISSION/264704372327?hash=item3da19c2e67:g:4e8AAOSw1aNem4jg

Thats the one Loren . I seen that transmission when I picked up my car , but the output shaft concerned me because i didn't think the number of splines was correct plus I knew the car i was getting was suppose to be a 3 speed .

[65GSConv]

What is the correct number of splines on the output shaft? The one on eBay has a good picture of the output shaft (not sure it is good enough to count the number of splines though).

[gssizzler]

Input should be 10 spline, output 27 spline! Input has 3 grooves that signifies close ratio 2:20 first gear high nickel content, high performance! Used by Buick 1964-66!? Not sure if available over the counter!?  Just Buick parts at dealership!? The one on eBay looks to have only 1 groove!?

[65GSConv]

Interesting.  The 65 GS 3-speed ratios were:
- 1st:  2.49:1
- 2nd: 1.587:1
- 3rd:  1:1

The 65 GS 4-speed ratios were:
- 1st:  2.20:1
- 2nd: 1.64:1
- 3rd:  1.31:1
- 4th:  1:1

So the 3-speed had a higher ratio 1st gear compared to the 4-speed - which is interesting.

Always wondered with all the torque of the 401 nailhead if Buick wouldn't have been better off on performance to go with a lower ratio rear axle and a wide ratio 4-speed. This combo would have had about the same off-the-line acceleration in 1st gear, but the engine would run a bit slower in 4th - where the 401 always ran out of breath as it neared top end. This arrangement would have kept the 401 in the upper torque band yet. Plus it would have been a little better on highways with a little slower engine speed. But I'm sure the Buick power train engineers had their reasons. Just interesting.

[gssizzler]

Yes. Very interesting why so different!? The the t10’s were Borg Warner built for GM! The 3 speeds are a top loader Dearborn built by Ford! I can attest to the fact of the difference in speed and feel of similar equipped cars! My hardtop is a 4 speed with 3:36 rear and my post car is a 3 speed 3:23 rear! The post has a harder pull different seat of the pants feel and maybe is faster!? Want to run them against each other some day! Got to have them both up and running!

[65GSConv]

Must have an optional rear axle in your post car, as I thought I understood both manuals were normally equipped with the 3.36:1 rear axle.

Considering your post, 1st gear, 2.49x3.23=8.043:1 ratio engine to wheels.  Your hardtop, 1st gear, 2.20x3.36=7.392:1 ratio engine to wheels.  So if your engines were perfectly identical and the car weights equal, your post would pull out in first gear faster than your hardtop. And your post, in 3rd, would have a slightly lower engine speed than the hardtop in 4th. Not sure if your gap between gears on the 3-speed hurts you as much as the having an extra "no-pull" shift on the 4-speed as far as maybe a 0-100 MPH time, but I don't think many push cars like that anymore, especially these classics.

[GS66]

Makes sense Jon. My 3 speed car pulled hard out of the hole. Beat a lot of 396 cars! But I also knocked out 4 rear ends with that car.

[jmos4]

Hi,

The Dearborn 3 speed is geared identically to a ST/TH400.

The standard rear gear on the Gran Sport with a manual was 3.36
2.20 1st gear T-10

The standard rear in a Special/Skylark 225/300 was 3.23 with a manual transmission. They also used a wide ratio 2.54 1st gear T-10 when a 4 speed was ordered, 3 speed was a non-syncro 1st similar to what came in a late 50's Chevy

My post car 401, I've ran a M20 wide ratio, currently a Autogear M22W both with a 2.54/2.56 1st and a 3.55 rear, came in the donor and have no real complaints, also have a 65 Special 300 with a wide ratio 2.54 1st and 3.23 rear, both are fun and I personally like the wide ratio vs closed ratio trans.

I had heard a few Gran Sport owners swapping the close ratio gears for wide ratio gears for better driveability.

Think the 2.20 first (T-10 & Muncie M21/M22) was developed somewhat for tire technology back then to help reduce tire spin.

Regards,
Jim

[wildcat65]

Ok, I bought my car without an engine or transmission.  I was "looking" for a a 3-speed because the
rarity and gear ratio.  But I already had an Autogear 4-speed with 2.56 first gear...
Talking with Dennis Maroudas regarding this he said he had the parts to build a
T-10 for the GS.  -OK, but whatabout the High Nickel gears?  and the ratios!
He had wide ratio high nickel gears.  Cool, lets do it.  They have 1 ring on the input shaft.
So maybe that is what this one has.  I've never researched the gears, so I'm just
going by what Dennis said...and he knows a lot.   

I have to track down a noise in the drivetrain in mine but last year I got a new Hurst shifter
for the T-10.  Kinda a PIA to install but makes a huge difference from the
original style.  Dennis had the thing dialed in but I must have undid that work taking the stuff in and out
of the car.   

[65GSConv]

Explain the "huge difference" of the Hurst shifter over the original style.  Was it all positive?  All negative?  Some of each?

[GS66]

I put a Hurst shifter in my 66 GS 4 speed car and also note a big difference. Much smoother operation, makes the old factory shifter feel sloppy.

[65GSConv]

I put a Hurst shifter in my 66 GS 4 speed car and also note a big difference. Much smoother operation, makes the old factory shifter feel sloppy.

Thanks for your description of the benefit of the Hurst. Factory 65 shifters were known to get loose due to bushing wear and linkage wear. Is it possible the sloppiness you felt was due to wear that maybe wasn't there when the vehicle was new? I rebuilt a 65 GS factory shifter a long time ago (and forgot a lot about how it felt after the rebuild), but I thought the rebuild made a huge difference and felt tight & precise again. Just wondering if anyone else has ever rebuilt a factory 65 GS 4-speed shifter?

[TrunkMonkey]

I have.
You can get the shift, levers (thick steel plates that bolt to the external shaft ends, and all the shifter internals, gates, the spacer/wave plates, springs, pins, bolts, bushings and new rods if the rod ends are worn (most are).

Unless trying for concourse points, I would recommend threaded rods and rod end bearings. But you need to be mindful of tunnel clearances. (more for those who have know how and desire to go that route)

There are several types of bushings people use with the stock style rods, nylon, steel, bronze.

If you have good rod ends and shift plates, then the steel are best, then bronze, and then nylon.

You need a vise to aid with disassembly and reassembly. It helps to hold the housing and also squeeze together to aid in removal and reinstallation of the housing plate.

Lay everything out in order of disassembly and take pictures as you disassemble, and you will be fine.

I would plan on car down time to allow to take everything apart, clean, inspect and "fit check" looking for what is worn and requires replacement.

Hurst also offers a rebuild service, and it might be a wash on the cost, vs time, parts and comfort level of you own work.

HTH. :)