Secret experimental 1964 GX 455

[Brian]

I don't need the master cylinder right now, so it is  yours John if  Bill wants to sell it.

[35chevcoupe]

I don't need the master cylinder right now, so it is  yours John if  Bill wants to sell it.

Brian ,
I don't need it right now either so ill get it and just put it in my inventory , that way if the need does come up we both know where there is one .
Thanks

[WkillGS]

Brand new Moog springs aren't that expensive, usually under $60 shipped from Amazon or eBay. I bought the 6033 for my 66 GS on a Amazon price dip for $44.50 shipped.  They're a perfect match to stock 1966 GS specs.
6033 Specs are 0.660" wire diameter and 16.4" free length. They're designed to support 2005 lbs at 11" installed height.

The Moog catalog shows #5230 for 1964 and #5246 for 1965 Special/Skylark. No listings for 65-7 GS tho.
5230 uses 0.610" wire, free length is 18.12". They're designed to support 1884 lbs at 11" installed height.
5246 is 0.630 wire and free length is 17.3". They're designed to support 1872 lbs at 11" installed height.

What kind of ride quality and ride height are you looking for? Large diameter wire will give you a firmer ride, and small diameter will deflect more over bumps and during hard cornering.

[cwmcobra]

I also have two original master cylinders from 65 Skylarks.  So are available if someone needs one in the future.  After you get Bill's, of course.

FYI,

Chuck

[Brian]

Everyone keep in mind that the manual brake master cylinder is different from the power brake master cylinder.   The manual ones are fairly easy to find.  The power brake masters are the ones that are difficult to locate. 

[cwmcobra]

That's good to know Brian.  I have one of each.

Chuck

[yachtsmanbill]

Hey Brian... So do the power MC's take the 1-1/8" piston? Reservoir size equal? I just priced one off the shelf at Crack Auto in town here and they pulled the number without even a flinch. Theres new and remanned. Anything in particular I need to look for?


Howdy Walt...  I havent MIC'd the wire size yet, but the free length is almost right on 17-1/8 (17-.125) laying on the floor. I would hafta guess theyve sagged a bit after sitting for 30+ years. I do want a good foundation for the 455, and a bit firmer of a ride, and a fairly stock attitude with some radial T/A's on all 4. The motor is all cast iron with PS and brakes. I couldnt measure the ride height (at what points anyway??) when the V6 was still onboard, with F78 -14s and half flat. I just tore into it. This is probably gonna entail some experimentation, unless anyone has gone this route and can guide me. Im not affraid to ask for help. I hope that shows in my posts LOL...  Bill

[yachtsmanbill]

I hope we are talking about the 64-65 MCs. Those are the single pots. The 67s with the duals show the same part numbers for front drums... power or Armstrongs'.   But then we get into Delco or Bendix stuff; Kripes...  ws

[cwmcobra]

The springs from my 65 GS (with heavy 401 V8) measure about 16" long (one is 15 3/4) with wire diameter of 0.68".  Picture attached. 

Chuck

[Brian]

The single master cylinder for 64-66 is different between PB and manual.  The difference is the piston on the manual version is different because it has the push rod and shackle assembly made into it.  It also does not have a bleeder jet on it.
  The PB master cylinder just has a hole in the back of the piston for the pushrod in the booster to fit into.  It also has a bleeder jet on the front of the casting. 
   The bore/piston size is the same on both and the cap/retaining bail is also the same. 

[yachtsmanbill]

So, I am finding this pretty informative, both from a restoration perspective, and one from an ex-kid that used to do this stuff 45 years ago like it was nothing, with very limited availability on parts. That second part was due to funding LOL and very few used parts that were only a few years old. New was outa the question back then.

So by Walts numbers, the springs were listed as having a wire dia. of .610, .630, and .680 with a relaxed length of 16.40 inches to 18.12" respectively.

Chucks OEM springs come in at a .680" wire and yet only <16.00" (tired) free length.

Now is my dilemma; Where is the ride height measured from? The muffler to ground, or oil pan, or front crossmember? The 401/425 nailheads were heavier no doubt than the lightweight younger brother Gen II BBBs.

From V8..

To get an accurate quote on freight for a BUICK 455 complete engine , exhaust etc, and TH 400 trans, weighs 1000 lbs.

I am guessing the 4 speed fully dressed about the same  + or -.

At any "rate", no pun intended, can some one help me with my arithmetic? It took me 4 years to flunk algebra, yet had a successful career starting as a draftsman, and finally a life time career as a power plant engineer. Hmm...

I am leaning towards the 18.125" length jobs strictly from a "stance perspective" including tire clearance issues and the fact that the "Special"  was suffering from saggy BBBoobs with a 3/4 size V6 and old age. A new bra sure couldnt hurt eh??   ws

[WkillGS]

.... can some one help me with my arithmetic? It took me 4 years to flunk algebra, yet had a successful career starting as a draftsman, and finally a life time career as a power plant engineer. Hmm...

I am leaning towards the 18.125" length jobs .......  ws

Wes, I always enjoy your posts! You have a great way of adding humor to the day!

Now for the serious stuff....
The 18.125" free length isn't the only critical spec, the spring rate needs to be considered.
This explanation is over simplified, not exactly accurate, but will get the point across.
I'll use the Moog 5230 (Special) and 6033 (GS) springs as examples.

1) The Moog 5230 has a RATE of 264 lbs/inch and a free length of 18.12".
It's designed to support 1884 lbs to produce an installed height of 11" for the spring.
You can compute ballpark height by dividing weight (1884) by rate (264) to determine how much it will compress:
1884/264=  7.136" of compression.
Subtract that amount from the free length (18.12") to get installed height of the spring:
18.12"- 7.136"= 10.984"

2)Compare to the Moog 6033 spring for the GS
Rate= 369 lbs/inch
Free length= 16.4"
Designed weight for 11" installed= 2005 lbs....
2005 lbs/369 rate = 5.43" of compression.
Subtract from the free length=
16.4" - 5.43" = 10.97" installed height of the spring.

Swap the weights so you have GS weight on a base Special spring and vice-versa:
2005 lbs/264 rate= 7.59" of compression
18.12" free length - 7.59" compression = 10.53"

and vice-versa, Special weight on a GS spring):
1884 lbs/369 rate= 5.106" of compression
16.4" free length - 5.106" = 11.29" when installed.

This shows a difference of 0.76"  in installed height between big block on small block springs and vice versa.

RIDE HEIGHT DIFFERENCE will be more due to geometry issues..... the spring (installed height) is inboard of the wheel.  The wheel is outboard of the spring, so the change will be more.... a SWAG  puts it at about double....so figure a 1.5" difference in ride height between the two spring/weight combos.

Laura at Springs n Things could calculate it exactly for you, or maybe there's an online calculator somewhere.

With all that said, I put some worn GS springs in my Special with 300 and 5 speed and the ride height was just about perfect. I'd give Chuck's springs a try.
And remember tire size affects ride height and stance!

[yachtsmanbill]

Who the heck is WES???  A typo Im sure!

I really should just buy new ones,; I have talked to Laura and she sent me a quote. Short of plain ol' experimentation, not sure with tires etc, where itll end up. One thing is for sure, canging springs used to scare me, and ive done a few, but this go around, breaking the ball joint outa the taper (the worst part with a pickle fork) was a breeze going by the book. A few whacks with a ball penis hammer and they popped right out. Whoda' thunk?? The old fork deal used to tear the rubber seals on the joints and henceforth, ruin them.

So, Im looking at tires all the way around. Right now, theres original F78/14s bias ply tires. Close to being OEM Im sure. So without measuring, Im guessing at a 14X6 rim?  I dont mind the 14s along with poverty caps on black or blue wheels. The backs sure seem to have a ton of room. The 64 has a narrow rear end (about 2" skinnier?) which gives an inch on each side. Back in the old days, a G70x14 did the trick, but Id like to go a little taller front and back.

Sooo. Out in the shop today, putzed around trying to clean the front frame up and ended up with a cloud of orange dust. Thats from a die grinder with a wire wheel. Unacceptable! Got a pan on the floor and soaked it all with #2 fuel oil for an overnight soaking. The crud should clean up with a hand wire brush and some rusty metal primer. Did the 72 XGS like that and it still looks swell after 4 years.

So the big question for the day (and guessing isnt fair!) is how to tighten up the glove box lock assembly into the dash. Mine was loose, and taking it out netted me about 4 sub assemblies. The lock part has a real shallow anti rotation keyway into the sheet metal. The escutcheon ring screws into that from the outside. Finger tight isnt enough. So is there a tool for that ring? I hate to use pliers. The best way I can describe the tool would be a tamper proof 1/2 allen wrench. The wall has to be super thin to clear the cylinder, and the ring has an inside hex.
  Walt, make a sign of the cross and help me out with this puhleez! There is absolutely no mention of the lock in the shop manual. I read it page by page today!     BILL ! 

BTW... the spring wire on the V6 springs is .620" and 11 full coils @ 17-1/8" free standing. So Chuck, whats the deal on the GS springs??   ws

[GS66]

Hey Wes,  I might have some springs too. If I do I could drop them off in Green Bay sometime.

[elagache]

Dear Bill, Jim, and mid-60s Buick owners with a taste for history and performance,

Who the heck is WES???  A typo Im sure!

What do ya' mean?    You mean you have never heard of (or heard music by) Wes Montgomery? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wes_Montgomery

Certainly one of the most influential jazz guitarists of the 1960s.

So, Im looking at tires all the way around. Right now, theres original F78/14s bias ply tires. Close to being OEM Im sure. So without measuring, Im guessing at a 14X6 rim?  I dont mind the 14s along with poverty caps on black or blue wheels. The backs sure seem to have a ton of room. The 64 has a narrow rear end (about 2" skinnier?) which gives an inch on each side. Back in the old days, a G70x14 did the trick, but Id like to go a little taller front and back.

Okay 14" rims will give you a much more original look, but that 455 won't exactly pass for originality so why limit yourself to relatively modest tires?  My wagon is finally on 15" rims and much fatter tires.  Perhaps I'm just confused, but for the power and torque of a big-block, I thought getting as fat tires as possible maximized the fun.   

Could you perhaps please elucidate?

Cheers, Edouard