Author Topic: What are you guys using for antifreeze?  (Read 341 times)

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Offline elagache

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What are you guys using for antifreeze?
« on: June 30, 2018, 01:55:22 PM »
Dear mid-60s Buick caregivers,

As usual, I'm behind on everything so I didn't to my July Buick Bugle under today.  On page 35 there is a warning against using modern antifreeze products.  The same information is presented roughly on this online article:

http://www.ncregionaaca.com/firstcapital/index.php/old-cars-and-antifreeze

The concern is that modern antifreeze includes Organic Acid Technology or (OAT).  These products are known to attack silicone and may damage older radiators.  The article also lists some brands of antifreeze that are supposedly safe for classic cars.

So what are you guys using for antifreeze?  Have you found a dependable supply?  Is this still something you can get at your local auto parts store or has been become a "designer product?"

A curious mind would like to know!  :icon_scratch:

Cheers, Edouard  :occasion14:

Offline TrunkMonkey

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Re: What are you guys using for antifreeze?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2018, 12:46:41 PM »
Prestone concentrate. Ethylene Glycol, cut 50/50 with H2O.
Michael

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Offline elagache

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Not that easy! (Re: What are you guys using for antifreeze?)
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2018, 05:40:37 PM »
Dear Michael and mid-60s Buick owners who like a cool engine!  :glasses9:

Prestone concentrate. Ethylene Glycol, cut 50/50 with H2O.

Uh, have you looked at the Prestone website lately?

https://prestone.com/products

I think want you mean is this product:

https://prestone.com/products?detail=AF3200

It has two ingredients according to the SDS: Ethylene Glycol and Diethylene Glycol.  However there is only a small amount of Diethylene Glycol.

I think we are running into another example of the auto makers scrambling to tweak the chemistry of products in this case to reduce the number of routine maintenance required for cars.  Still, if I had wandered into my local auto parts store to buy a bottle of antifreeze, I'm sure I would have bought the wrong stuff without this warning.

First oil, next automatic transmission fluid, now antifreeze?  What's next?  :dontknow:

Edouard  :icon_scratch:

Offline TrunkMonkey

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Re: What are you guys using for antifreeze?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2018, 07:43:51 PM »
This is the stuff.  The "Right Stuff", just like what the astronauts drank.  Oh, wait. That was Tang...  :tongue3:

« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 07:45:52 PM by TrunkMonkey »
Michael

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Offline option B9

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Re: What are you guys using for antifreeze?
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2018, 09:08:55 PM »
  Edouard,   You can also use Auto Zone part # AZA003  Conventional Antifreeze & Coolant (Green, not pre-mixed). All makes and models 1989 and earlier. It seems that they don't always stock this part # so if you see it buy it.   I purchased 3 cases several years ago, so i'm good for a few years down the road......

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Offline GS66

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Re: What are you guys using for antifreeze?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2018, 09:18:08 PM »
I use the concentrate too, not the 50/50.
Jim
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Offline GreatScat1965

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Re: What are you guys using for antifreeze?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2018, 07:16:07 AM »
from the what it's worth department, I still use green and cut it 60/40. Just as important as the coolant. I use distilled water. I'd like to challenge the article about modern coolants. It is the new engines that have all the "special needs" like silicone, aluminium, composites, and expensive sensors. Not the case in a classic engine. So what logically could be wrong with using the high tech, "Safe on stuff" coolant in a dinosaur. Oh, and a bottle of Redline Water Wetter.

Jerry
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Offline Loren At 65GS

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Re: What are you guys using for antifreeze?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2018, 11:17:46 AM »

 I'm going to throw this one in also. I always add a bottle of water pump lube.  The one time I failed to do so , I lost a fairly new pump to leaking.

 Depending on climate area. Too concentrated of a mixture can cause the coolant to turn to slush .

  Loren
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Offline sjfd04

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Re: What are you guys using for antifreeze?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2018, 11:28:43 AM »
Just switched to Evans waterless coolant
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Offline TrunkMonkey

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Re: What are you guys using for antifreeze?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2018, 12:05:58 PM »
(Broad brush applied by Captain Obvious)


The problem is the "cleaning up" of the stuff that "gozinta" the newer engines and the elimination of things like lead, yellow metals, oil based sealing components/rubber and such things.

The "newer" stuff, often leaches out or attacks those materials present in the older engines, and/or those additives and chemical compositions that worked with prolonging the life of the older engines and causing problems.

It is not often as critical on a show car, trailered or only driving a few hundred miles a year as the fluids are likely kept fresh and changed. But hard driven or "daily drivers" (like mine), have the needs of many of the older make up of fluids etc.

Copper, bronze brass (yellow metals) in radiator, synchros other gearbox components, and bushings coming in contact with some of the high detergent lubricants and synthetics* that also have ZDP and other chemicals absent, can leach out those metals and some of those metals by virtue of their alloyed makeup also provided sacrificial wear/lubrication and therefore protected the harder metals, and the "new juices" often negate or compromise that function.

Others attack lead in solder, and or the liberation of metal components and the suspension in the fluids can result in galvanic corrosion or dissimilar metal corrosion.  Most of these things are very slow acting, but even though slow, the effects are permanent and cumulative, so often go unnoticed until something fails.

Most of manufacturers (unless focused on classic cars) have no concern for any of this as it applies to older cars.
And they make changes that make their product profitable, desirable and affordable for their markets.

* synthetics, btw are mostly the same beginning as "natural/mineral" oils, but they are specifically formulated hence the word "synthetic", but the term is misleading to some that the "lubricant" is not truly "oil".
When it cam about, it was at a time that lubricants were pretty much base refined and nothing more. The a few additives became normal, and then a giant leap with "highly formulated" oils, and the distinction and some of the marketing hype coined the term "synthetic", as a "superior" (and misleading, man made = better), but it is the term that is (mis-)used.

Most know of the issue with eliminating lead in fuel, it was a "big deal" (at the time) back in the late 70s and 80s, and many feared their valves were going to fall out of their tailpipes after one tank of gas. Some cars did suffer valve seat damage, some were high nickel or otherwise harder material and some engines already had hearned seat inserts.

Valve rotators helped, and the fact the leaded fuel continued with at least a gram of tet, helped prolong the needed protection of lead.


There are also benefits to the new formulations, so it's a trade off, but if folks do a little homework, you can stack things in your favor by selecting the best things to put in, and the worst things to leave out.

And realize that there are cars out there a hundred plus years, still running, and many cars that are 50 years old as daily drivers. It just takes more effort and knowledge than when they were new and almost anything was good for them.

 :glasses9:

Michael

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Offline elagache

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That's what I was afraid of! (Re: Using for antifreeze?)
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2018, 03:42:12 PM »
Dear Michael, Tony, Jim, Jerry, Loren, Tom, and mid-60s Buick owners who want their engines to be cool!  :glasses9:

Eeek! That's exactly what I was afraid of!

For starters I went down into our closet where we keep these sorts of fluids and found this:



I don't remember buying this bottle suggesting it is at least older than 2000.  There are no listing of ingredients anywhere on the label.  Basically I have no idea what this stuff is!  :icon_scratch:

The related issue is exactly which formulation of antifreeze did da' gang at Orinda Classic Car put in my trusty wagon.  I'll definitely ask at my next opportunity!

from the what it's worth department, I still use green and cut it 60/40. Just as important as the coolant.


So you are going with a greater concentration of antifreeze?

I use distilled water.


Okay on this one I'm just stumped - what's the reason for that?

Oh, and a bottle of Redline Water Wetter.


Yeah, probably don't need it for just running around locally, but definitely this would be a product to use before heading out into Route-66 desert country with my (yet to be purchased) vintage trailer.

I'm going to throw this one in also. I always add a bottle of water pump lube.  The one time I failed to do so , I lost a fairly new pump to leaking.


There appears to be considerable dispute about this idea.  Here is one thread that says you shouldn't need it. 

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/old-wives-tale-water-pump-lubrication.1059355/

Nonetheless, I'm not sure I understand the concept, so perhaps someone can explain to me the rationale

Depending on climate area. Too concentrated of a mixture can cause the coolant to turn to slush .


I'm sure that's true in some of the locations you guys find yourself in!   Not as much of a problem here in California!

Just switched to Evans waterless coolant


There are definitely advantages to that, but it is expensive.  What was your reason to make the additional investment?

(Broad brush applied by Captain Obvious)

. . . . .



Many of the points you are making were mentioned in the Buick Bugle article that alerted me to the problem.  I'm a bit nervous about these matters because I strongly suspect that Biquette's old engine started to fail prematurely because of the removal of ZDDP in motor oil.  I really want to be proactive and keep an eye on changes in automotive fluid chemistry.  There was an article in the March 2018 Car Craft magazine explaining the arrival of transmission fluids formulated specifically for classic and muscle cars.  Here is some examples from Joe Gibbs:

http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/products/transmission-fluidshtml

Basically Car Craft suggested that we consider these "designer transmission fluids" because, while the modern fluids claim to be backward compatible, they are formulated with very different goals in mind.  There is so much pressure on the auto makers to improve fuel economy that they were looking everywhere including transmission fluid.  Obviously, the GM transmissions of the 1960s-80s weren't designed with these sorts of tight tolerances in mind.  So what is supposedly compatible might not give your vintage tranny the best protection and longest life.

Never a dull moment when you take care of a classic car! .  . . . .

Cheers, Edouard  :occasion14:

Offline TrunkMonkey

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Re: What are you guys using for antifreeze?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2018, 05:35:37 PM »
I hear ya.

I almost bought that same stuff a few years ago, but noticed the "Any Color" at the check out and stopped.


I use "Driven HR2" 10w-30 and Wix filters on my nailhead in the '64,  and will be using the same on the 430 for the '68.

For manual tranny, I use "Driven GO GL-4" 80w-90 gear oil and for the Strange rear I use Lucas HiPo 85w-140 per Strange's recommendation. It is runnin the S-Trac, so I don't require Limited Slip additives.

And the "real" Anti-freeze. I use cut it half with water. Since the coolant is not evaporating and being replenished continually, the issue of lime/mineral deposits should not be a problem, and so I do not bother with distilled. But I also understand why some choose to do so.

As well as using non-ethanol fuel, but will use the "up to 10%", if I have to.

The other thing is preventative maintenance, proper time/mileage change, and continual and periodic inspections are a good way to stay ahead of many problems.

But I bet you take good care of the Biskit, and you do a good thing, to bring these issues up.  :read2:

Michael

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Offline GreatScat1965

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Re: What are you guys using for antifreeze?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2018, 08:01:11 AM »
Hi Edouard,

This coolant discussion seems to have gotten rather muddy. So just to be clear on what I had stated to you my 60/40 mix is 60%water. Water cools more efficiently than antifreeze. Antifreeze increases boiling point as does pressurizing the system.i.e. 15 PSI radiator cap. There are charts that can explain this much better than I can. As for the type of water, I'm not a chemist but by engine builder, cylinder head manufacturer, and a quick Google search tells me to use distilled water. So at a buck a gallon why not. Heck even Gail's steam iron tells he to use distilled water so it doesn't cake up with mineral deposits.

From Jones Racing:
Many dirt tracks aren’t as strict about only using water in the cooling system as they are at asphalt tracks where anti-freeze spilled on the racing surface can make it slick as ice. But Paulson points out that there is nothing currently available that works better at pulling heat out of the engine and transferring it to the aluminum in the radiator than good old fashioned water. He did say that there is some magic fluid that the US Navy runs in it’s nuclear submarines that has better heat transfer properties that simple water, but it’s top secret and probably toxic so we racers aren’t going to be able to get our hands on it any time soon.

This also includes coolant additives that advertise a “40-degree drop” in water temperatures. Paulson says he’s tested all of the additives and none do anything when it comes to improved cooling versus straight-up water. However, he does recommend avoiding tap water if possible, instead using distilled water.


Jerry
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Offline elagache

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Compelling case for waterless coolant (Re: Using for antifreeze?)
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2018, 04:46:30 PM »
Dear Michael, Jerry, and mid-60s Buick owners who want their engines to run cool!  :glasses9:

This coolant discussion seems to have gotten rather muddy. So just to be clear on what I had stated to you my 60/40 mix is 60%water. Water cools more efficiently than antifreeze. Antifreeze increases boiling point as does pressurizing the system.i.e. 15 PSI radiator cap. . . . .

Okay these points are correct, but water is hardly the best choice as a cooling agent for engine.  Many of the problems with coolants are caused because of the water-based chemistry that leads to corrosion.  Distilled water is still water and contains dissolved gases like free oxygen that will cause oxidation in your cooling system.

The folks at Evans waterless coolant make a very compelling case:

https://www.evanscoolant.com/

If you look at the benefits of their product, it resolves just about every concern you raise:

https://www.evanscoolant.com/how-it-works/benefits/

While they admit that their coolant doesn't transfer heat as efficiently as water, it is more than sufficient to keep your engine cool.  Since it's boiling point is 375? F, it is always liquid, so there is no possibility of boil-over or high cooling system pressures.

I'll be the first to admit that this stuff is expensive and conventional antifreeze have a decent life expectancy.  Nonetheless, since our classic cars cannot use the long lasting modern formulations and the Evans coolant will last the entire life of the engine - perhaps it isn't such an unreasonable investment after all.

Cheers, Edouard

Offline elagache

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Interesting video by Jay Leno on Waterless. (Re: Using for antifreeze?)
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2018, 03:47:20 PM »
Dear mid-60s Buick caregivers who are always learning something new,

Michael  (TrunkMonkey) pointed me to this video on YouTube by Jay Leno on Evans Waterless coolant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7PykrgzWPQ

I had assumed that the only reason to go with waterless coolant was if you expected to run your car in some extreme conditions.  However, after seeing Jay Leno's example of a badly corroded aluminum plate  :violent1: . . . . . . perhaps there are other reasons!  :angel4:

Cheers, Edouard  :occasion14: