very INTERESTING 401/425 in Florida

[wheelz]

Guys, I met with a fello on friday, who was SERVICE MANAGER for a well known local Florida West Coast Buick Dealership for over 42 years. . . His health has limited him to light duty so he is beginning to sell his inventory.  I met him when I bought a 69 Stage 1 vert he built back in the late 80's... (pix below) He was a Genuine Buick Guru and had obvious access to all the goodies as service manager!!  Anyway, while visiting his garage on friday, he unveiled his PRIZED NEW 401/425 rebuild, on a stand, running, with a ton of KB stuffs! 
He was building this motor for a 32 Ford Pickup, which he sold a few years when his health started to deteriorate.

General summary is this:
He started building this motor sometime back in 90's with a brand new RAW, bare over the counter replacement 401 block, (I didnt look for numbers) line bored the block, installed NEW SET of 425 pistons, KB Cam, 425 heads, new rods, (he mentioned he had to search 25+ or more rods to find a matching set...) 425 crank, new rocker shafts, factory 2x4 setup with correct carbs, NOS BUICK timing cover & timing chain, finned aluminum valve covers, correct 2x4 distributor, a/c brackets, starter, stock iron exhaust manifold and much much more!

When he fired up this motor on the stand, it produced serious whitecaps in my water bottle some 20+ feet away. Some parts and tools shook off the shelves in his garage and fell to the floor.  He "claims" with all the engineering, technical data and machining he's invested into this motor, it is a true 11.7:1 compression ratio, all LOW END TORQUE.  Oil pressure was at 65lbs.  Tach ramped up to 4800 rpms in miliseconds...(altho I watched the motor on the stand rock slightly from side to side and was a little askeer'd the motor was gunna tip over IF he kept wrappin it up!!!!!)    He stood alongside the motor and didnt flinch.
My chest pounded with the compresson... and I am still deaf  today from that moment. . .  I am an OLD motor head and not easily impressed by too much anymore, BUT, THIS MOTOR IMPRESSED ME!!!
As we walked thru his garage, he pointed out some other bits and pieces of car parts, ie: disc brakes systems, a well rusted 2x4 air cleaner, SP400 trannys, a BUICK DEALER SERVICE FACTORY SUPPLIED Nailhead HEAD machine that allows him to remove valves from heads with ease... and some other chevy/ford stuffs too.

I was sooo impressed and intriqued that I failed to take one pix... ugh. Nevertheless, we discussed a package deal, ie: that killer 401/425 motor, extra 425 heads, cranks, manual flywheels, 65-66 exhaust mans and several ...YES, several manual floor consolettes....at least one had a tach.. I saw at least 3... maybe 4...  ya.   most had rings and boots too!!!     whew.
There is more but I was trying not to pee all over myself.

He is asking $11,500 but I THINK, I could buy his entire Buick inventory stash for $9800 cash.

I know.
I know, its hard to say IF this is a deal or not, but I've been around this Buick Block a timer two and I think the motor has to be worth perhaps $8000+? right?  Remember, its a DROP IN AND GO motor... NEEDS NOTHING....

Your thoughts???  Comments?  Advise?   Bring them on.

Wheelz, Tampa Bay



 

 




 

[cwmcobra]

Wheelz,

Wow, what a find.  I can't comment on the price, but there are obviously some very interesting parts there.  It would be nice to have an inventory of all that's included, but I suspect you've got the important bits filed in your head  . 

If you decide to buy the bundle, there are some parts I'd be interested in if you will be wanting to sell them.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Chuck

[jmos4]

Hi,

A few years ago I came across a good collection of nailhead parts, aluminum intakes 2 single 4 barrels and a dual quad, the collection had blower intakes, hillborn units, tons of parts, needless to say I bought as much as my bank account allowed and that I had a need for. Look on V8 under x-castings intakes.

As they say time to buy is when you come across it, not to mention its better to get the parts from the original owner vs waiting for the relatives.

Let us know how it works out.

Regards,

[GS66]

Good luck with this!

[wheelz]

UPDATE!  I drove down and met with the feller once again for a few hours, and just allowed him to 'RAMBLE ON'... YOU know what I mean.... Only THIS TIME, I snapped pix and videos of this incredible motor: running, on the stand... garden hose running thru the block for cooling.... AWESOME MOTOR..  as I previously stated he started with a raw NOS 401 block and built the motor with 425 crank, rods etc, back in his first years with Darby Buick,  the year was 1966...  He fast became the Service Director and the GO TO guy for all and any Buick issues from anywhere along the Florida West Coast Buick Dealers...   He trained many people along the way.

He purchased a BUICK ONLY tool, for simplifying the rebuilding of NAIL HEADS ONLY..., Called J-5251-3 a Buick manufactured tool available ONLY to Service Department TOP Execs and he was definitely one of those such guys!  He has a wall full of plaques from his tenure with Buick... one of them signed by Denny Manner, faded but barely ledgible date 11/67.  He worked with Don Garlits on his TWIN Nailhead motor dragster, still sits in the Garlits Drag Racing Musuem in Ocala Florida. 

Anyway, it took him over 7 years to gather all the factory CORRECT parts to build this motor including the correct 2x4 CARBS, intake and linkages, correct dual quad distributor, NOS timing cover, NOS oil pan... NOS rods, NOS 425 crank, NOS exhaust manifolds... GM chrome top piston rings and GM factory cast rings...and on & on.. About the only thing he changed was WHO he had build a CAM,  CHAD HERBERT a former Kennedy-Bell cam designer/builder.....this cam was ground to HIS DESIGN, to his PERSONAL specs, he tries to recall exactly, some'n like 512 lift,  118 degrees overlap, and more he couldnt remember at that moment, nevertheless, he built this as a low end torque monster motor...
So, this motor is brand new!  He built this motor on a stand piece by piece and has run it at least every month since he built it! He and his son had planned to install it into a Skylark someday but for whatever reasons, they never did.

SO, I finally made him an offer for the motor, a bunch of Buick parts, including the J 5251 3 tool, a set of almost NOS 66 425 heads with new valves and valve seals, NEVER BEEN MACHINED... a few Buick consolettes, some other RARE Buick items/tool that I care not to share yet... and I saw at least 50 or 60 ERTL Yello, Black, Red, white GSXs. . .
Tons of desirable stuff. My offer was considerably less than his $11,500, however, he hasnt ruled out my offer. Asked me to give him a week or so to talk it over with his son and wife, and then he will decide.

I WISH you could feel the 10:7:1 raw compression as this motor radically ideled on that stand...  OH MY.

Anyway, as I said, I Promise to keep you all in the loop as this unfolds! 

Wheelz, Tampa Bay



 

[WkillGS]

Nailheads LOVE compression! You've found quite a treasure.
The 5251 tool is basically a valve spring compressor. It's shown in the Buick Chassis manuals. I don't see a high $$ resale there.
401 and 425's share the crank, rods, and heads. Standard stuff, but good parts always have value.
Interested to know what pistons are in it. Buick had 11:1 401 pistons, anything 425 would be aftermarket.
A built motor might also be a tough resell. Tough to determine if machine work was done right. Are you going to use it yourself?
You know what the consoles are worth....

[wheelz]

All good points Walt!!  THANK YOU for your input! However, now I dunno if I offered too much...   I have no serious plans for it IF I get it.  Do you think $8500 will be a hard sell for this 2x4 Nailhead motor???
   
Just realized if you scroll all the way to the bottom of the very last pixture, you will see an AVI link..thats a video of this motor running.  It works for me maybe because I posted it???  Please lemme know if anyone else can open the file and view this motor running.  Its awesome.

Wheelz, Tampa Bay

[cwmcobra]

Hi Wheelz,

I was able to open the video file.  Sounds good!

Good luck with your negotiations!

Chuck

[WkillGS]

The video link worked for me when I clicked on it. Be sure to turn the volume WAY UP!!

IMO, a built motor would be a tough sell unless you can document the parts used and machine work performed.
You CAN add up the value of the parts, but it's tough for a potential buyer to know if the machine work is right unless it's disassembled and everything is measured. This engine does have 2x4's and GS manifolds which adds value.
The '401' block bored to '425' worries me. Was the cylinder wall thickness sonic measured?
A basic rebuild could be in the $3000 range if assembly is DIY. Having a pro like Tom T do every little detail of a hi-po rebuild could be over 10k.  I'm gonna say $8500 would be a stretch if you plan to resell it. Perhaps someone like Tom or Russ Martin could give you a realistic number as what it's market value may be.
http://nailheadbuick.com/

[Dr Frankenbuick]

More documentation makes the resale more likely.  A receipt for machine work would be a great start. Then you can fill in the the blanks by documenting some testing and a partial tear down. You can complete and record a compression and leak down test to give an overall health snapshot of the engine.  Then you could use a borescope to evaluate and record each cylinder wall and piston top.  If you remove the pan, you can look at the bottom of all pistons, plastigage all of the mains and rods while taking pictures of the condition of the journals and bearings.  You can see most of the cam lobes with the valley cover removed and that can be documented.  Lastly you can tell if it is holding water, how the oil pressure is hot and cold and if it is out of balance by test running it on a stand or an empty chassis. You could hear any strange noises if it were possible to hook it to mufflers during testing.  Open exhaust can hide a lot of issues. That is what I would do if I wanted top dollar for a rebuilt engine without a lot of documentation.  The more questions you can answer for the buyer without asking or an "I don't know response" the more likely a sale.   

There was a stroker Nailhead a while back that I had an opportunity to buy.  Modified engines are the most appealing to me and the price was good. The owner said it came to him from someone else and claimed he did not know very much about it.  That left me with two thoughts: he really didn't know much about it or he did know about it and did not want to say. Had he taken the time to gather some or all of the information I suggested above, I would have crossed PA to pick it up in Ohio without hesitation.  As he did not, I let something slip away that was very desirable to me.                 

[telriv]

I DON'T TRUST ANYONE!!!!! I would pull it completely apart BEFORE I would offer it for sale. If not it's only worth a core to me. Some of the external parts DO have value, but not 8K worth. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT SOMEONE ELSE MAY HAVE DONE. 25 years technology has come a long way. As just for an example I  checked a 455 Olds that was just done by a supposedly reputable machinist. Was having some issues with blow-by cold, not warm. Took a bore scope & looked inside. PROBLEMS???? The block was just BORED & NEVER HONED. Now we have to START ALL OVER!!!!!
Just my thoughts.


Tom T.

[wheelz]

Guys, I hear perfectly clear, what ya'll are sayin'.  And normally, I would agree. However, the fact that this guy ran the machine shop, (one of his 28 SERVICE AWARDS I snapped a pix of below) He was a TOP RATED REGIONAL Buick Service Master Technician since 1966, and I see all the professional work he has done to this motor, how it runs, steady oil pressure, idles, raps up effortlessly, on & on....and I have bought many cars and parts from this fello and in my heart, (you know what is said about GUT FEELING!) Well, I honestly feel this motor is built correctly using only NOS parts he was able to locate over the years... and I have no doubt this motor will produce one wild ride!  .. .. ...THAT being said,

He has begun the negotiations with me, adding a bunch of extra parts, and taking away a few as well to try to meet my offer.... PLUS, he just told me he is considering selling his 66 Chevelle Vert 427, auto A/C car ....ALL ORIGINAL DOCUMENTATION included... (see a corner of this 66 Chevelle in then last pix, upper right) He remembers the car came in to Darby Buick dealership as a trade back in 71. He paid what they gave on trade, $750!  He's had in sitting in his huge garage since that day. 

Since he is NOT an online guy, I offered to assist him selling that car, towards partial payment for this Built 401. Just another avenue. 
We shall see.

Meanwhile, I will post a few more interesting fotos.
Wheelz, Tampa Bay 

[wheelz]

Just say'n.  Im not trying to force my beliefs on anyone, but I feel, this guy is for real! 

Wheelz, Tampa Bay