65GS.com - Buick Gran Sport Enthusiasts!
Announcements => New Members / Bio's => Topic started by: Clatter on May 08, 2024, 12:41:41 AM
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Greetings from Santa Cruz.
I'm embarking on restoring a GS for a good friend.
New to Buicks but not new to wrenching.
Worked as a fleet mechanic before i had a license.
My 5th car was a V8 Vega, My 6th actually ran (a Fiat) :tard:
Been deep into aircooled VWs for the last 40+ years.
Have three, including a Porsche-transplanted Fastback and a Beetle with a 300HP turbocharged engine in the works.
Could post some details if anyone cares...
Built Street/drag Harley Davidsons for a living for a while.
Also have been a machinist.
After 27 years too many in IT I'm now enjoying a retirement job (oxmoron) of restoring cars.
But first,
There is a Fiat we found in the woods being fixed up for my sons in the way of our Buick project.
Here's something different - have a strong stomach.
https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-rats-nest-81-x1-9-build.44813/ (https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-rats-nest-81-x1-9-build.44813/)
Once the Fiat gets evicted my friend's GS will take priority.
In the meantime, I'm learning and sourcing parts.
The plan is to restore the car to original correctness as much as possible.
It's rough, but numbers matching and unrestored.
Unlike a good survivor car, getting it correct will be difficult.
Engine and trans were done recently, but how accurately remains to be known.
I'm going to be leaning heavily on the experts here for help.
We have a Skylark that might have been a parts car, but it's too nice.
We'll call it the 'example car' - because i really do not know how these cars go together... :evil6:
First thing will be to put an exhaust and fuel tank in the GS, finish dressing the engine, and light it off.
Might even take it for a spin around town if the brakes and whatnot cooperate.
Want to know the motor/trans etc. were done correctly before we tear the car down.
If these things were done wrong, we want to be able to do that part with everything else,
And not find out the hard way afterwards.
Right? :icon_salut:
I have trust issues with engines anyone else built.
That -might- have something to do with VWs.. Or maybe Fiats..? :bootyshake:
Started a build thread before i knew about this site on V8 Buick.
https://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/buddy%E2%80%99s-beauty-%E2%80%9865-gs-build.393837/ (https://www.v8buick.com/index.php?threads/buddy%E2%80%99s-beauty-%E2%80%9865-gs-build.393837/)
Buddy and i are VERY grateful to have a dedicated group of enthusiasts on these forums to help us along.
Doing this without would surely be nigh impossible.
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Welcome! Looks like you have a great project there! These are fun cars to drive and still comfortable.
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Welcome! Looks like you have a good candidate for restoration and the skills to do it well. Kudos for helping a friend!
Your VW and Fiat experience is impressive. Particularly to me as I'm working on a 70 Opel GT for a friend that was a mouse and squirrel house for 30+ years. And driven on salty roads in Michigan. So, lots of challenges and frustrations.
Interesting rainbow of colors in the engine compartment of that GS. Does it have an automatic trans? Please post some pictures of the interior and underside when available. We all love to follow along on a restoration.
:cheers2:
Chuck
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Welcome !
Took a look at your build thread on v8. From what I gather, the engine was done by previous owner with parts purchased from the Martins. Russel and his son are among the best Nailhead builders.
You have already done some parts sourcing I see. Speaking from experience on interiors, Legendary has the better seat covers. I have installed both PUI and Legendary seat covers. The Legendary are more accurate and better fitting. I suggest going directly to Legendary and skipping the middleman. Dash pads were remanufactured through a Texas company, but they have become unreliable. They still owe me a couple of pads that I have paid for.
As Walt stated, stay away from FB for information on restoration. I look at those when I feel like I need a good laugh.
Again, Welcome.
Loren
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Sorry Steve. Seems I missed the link to your V8Buicks post with all the pictures and information.
Thanks for joining us. Looking forward to your build thread!
:cheers2:
Chuck
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Welcome to our GS support group. Looking forward to watching your Buick resurrection.
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Hey Steve, great to have you here! :occasion14:
It looks like a solid car and a great candidate for restoration.
Body panels and chrome can be tough to find replacements for. The mechanical stuff (other than engine) is mostly shared with the other GM divisions and generally available. With that said, Ames Pontiac is a respected supplier here. Many of their GTO parts will fit our Buicks, so get one of their catalogs. CARS (in NJ) is a Buick supplier which has parts repo'd. They make many unique parts, which are sometimes sold by other retailers. I haven't dealt with the big retailers like Year 1, OPGI, etc. Some of their products are hit/miss when it comes to quality.
The 'Documentation' section of this site is a gold mine.... start with the 65 Buick Chassis manual and the GS supplement manual. The Body manual and Parts book can be invaluable as well.
The 'Gallery' contains lots of literature ranging from dealer info to old magazine articles... great stuff.
I'm primarily a '66 GS guy, I have a bunch of those, and a 65 GS vert project I picked up years ago.
I did get diverted to the other side with a daily driver '88 Saab 900 turbo around 1998. They're fun cars. My dad had a '64 VW squareback I learned to drive in. I'd like to see a pic of your fastback if you'd care to post.
Looking forward to your progress!
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Aw, shucks, guys, thanks for the kind welcome.
At this stage (stage 1? :laughing7: ) -sorry- *cough*... I'm just a babe in the woods.
My plan at this point is to comb through any/all info already written here that might help us.
That way i don't have to bug y'all with questions that have already been answered 100 times.
I did indeed order the interior directly from Legendary.
They're sending samples of their headliner material that they admitted wasn't perfectly accurate.
Perhaps one of you guys knows where to get the right material, or even a whole headliner?
SMS has a reputation for taking years and years... Maybe that's our only choice?
Any of you guys use Just Dashes?
They did one for my friend's car and it came out kind of "puffy".
This is an example of what makes an accurate resto so difficult.
Aftermarket parts are often the only choice.
It's a real burden having an experienced eye.
So many things that 99% of the world would think are fine can really bug a guy who knows and cares...
Man, i would -so- love to head East and meet up with a couple of you guys at a show.
Seeing someone pick apart a car would be most educational.
I can do that with VWs now.
Could be a show judge with them for sure.
-But-
The VW scene has changed massively since the 80s.
It used to have spectacular customs and perfect restos,
Now it's success if the car arrives under its own power.
Unlike a real show,
Most VW events,
People get super offended if you show up and start critiquing.
Having incorrect stuff is a point of pride for many of them.
My friends and i have developed nonverbal signals to communicate when checking out cars,
So not to get someone's little panties all in a bunch... :angry9:
Really looking forward to a change of scene.
I'm the opposite.
If someone knows something i don't and points it out,
I'm totally stoked.
It's an opportunity for me and my car to improve.
So, by all means,
I'm 100% -all ears- when it comes to missing and incorrect things with this car.
We have the opportunity to save another GS from extinction.
Between my skills and facilities,
(And Buddy's money)
We'll all hopefully live long enough to save another nice example for posterity.
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I've heard the same thing about Just Dashes being too puffy.
It's sad and maddening regarding the guy in Texas. I worked with him to remanufacture the '65 Skylark/ Gran Sport dash pad. We ended up with a super product in the end. It fit exactly like an original and had the correct grain to the vinyl. Now he won't even return messages or calls to me.
SMS should have the correct headliner but as you noted, they aren't the quickest with delivery time. It took just over a year to get the headliner for my Sportwagon from them. Finally got it after reporting them to my credit card company.
If you are in the neighborhood of Strongsville, Ohio July 10-13, The BCA National meet will be going on. It's posted in the Events Section here.
Don't hesitate to ask questions here. That's why I keep the forum going. We have a small but very dedicated group willing to help and we love to see pictures. lol Members here have restored some really fine cars whether they be a Special, Skylark, Gran Sport or even the Sportwagon. We've chased down the parts and people to get the right stuff.
Best wishes with the Gran Sport restoration.
Loren
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So glad to be here..! :notworthy:
Where to source a correct headliner?
The one in our car is completely gone.
Interior color was saddle.
Is there a specific headliner color for this interior color?
Or are all of the headliners the same color?
About to just gamble on SMS knowing full well how its likely to work out.
Maybe just get one from Legendary as a back up?
What other choices are there?
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I don't have access to all my reference materials but when I get back to my home in Nebraska, I can look it up. Buick had a salesman reference book that listed the interior colors with the exterior color. Although there must have been some exceptions. I've seen silver headliner in a GS but I don't recall ever seeing it used in a Skylark. Also, I know of at least one GS with a silver star pattern headliner.
Loren
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Trim code 159 saddle for hardtops and 199 for post models list the headliner color in the color and trim book as being Fawn in color with a tier grain pattern! They do list headliners on rock auto not sure how close the colors or pattern would be!? Would love to get a sample but dont think you can from them!?
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Hi,and welcome good luck with sms took 18 months to get his interior,and they lost the tack strips for his door panels 65 ponitac .jim
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Excellent info gentlemen.
Thanks again.
Wonder if any of these colors are close enough to fawn?
See attached.
Only like $150 to get just the headliner.
Kind of an expensive sample.
Maybe i can find Acme and they will send a sample?
Then the question of if tier grain vinyl is right.
Since we have so much work to do,
And Rockauto always ships so quickly,
Maybe we?ll at least order one from SMS,
And, if years later, we still don?t have one, and are ready for it,
Get the next best.
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Welcome aboard ! Great group of guys here and can't wait to follow along on your build .
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We have chewed a lot of the same grass.
Grew up in the early drag racing scene in SoCal, all my family on both sides were machinists, engineers, mechanics, racers, in planes, trains and automobiles.
Drove Harleys for may years, USAF Crew Chief, and flying aircrew member, retired and then 27 years IT as Director of IT for several corporations in four states in the south east.
(Owned a 1975 Karman Ghia autostick, 1968 Type 3 1600 (U.S.) Square Back, 1973 German Type 3 Square Back and a 1970 Bug while in West Germany in the early 80s, and had a lifelong friend that was a big Hot Rod VW Bug guy in the 70s (had a wild bug with a 1600).
The Nailhead, and me being nearly the same age, just have a relationship that is hard to describe. I trust it to get me anywhere I want to go without giving it any thought.
But none of them impressed me as much as Buicks with the bottom end torque.
Nailheads, and (older) Harley's are cousins.
The 65 GS is a challenge, as specific parts are sometimes hard to come by, but for those that love the, it is worth the journey.
I am partial the the '64 Special and Skylark. (but could not help myself adding a nailhead because, why not?)
There is just something about the 64/65 GM A-Bodys that have a siren's call, and I cannot resist.
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Kinda small world, usaf avionics 56 beatle 59 van bitburg early 70's,vans another story .jim
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Bitburg/Spangdahlem 80-83 :occasion14:
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36th ams bitburg 70-72
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When my dad graduated from college he bought a brand-new 65 Olds Cutlass.
He didn?t even have a job yet.
Ultra high-compression 330 and an M-21.
It was dark green with a white interior and tach on the console.
My Mom used to drive us in it when i was a tot.
Another friend had a 65 GTO convertible in the 90s
389 4-barrel and another M-21 - no console.
We used to rail along the freeways in Phoenix at night with the top down.
Something about 65 A-bodies is indeed the best of the best.
Styling sussed out, true muscle, and not yet bigger and bloated.
Luckily for all of us not everyone knows which cars are the best.
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Been pouring thru you guys' build threads here.
SO much great info!
Learning that there is very much to know.
Things like motor mounts or hood hinges or steering boxes.
Looks like I'll be following trails y'all have blazed before.
Attached are a couple VW pics.
Only because someone asked! :laughing1:
Also,
Trying to determine if the engine itself was painted the right color.
Obviously, some knickknacks are wrong.
I'm kinda colorblind.
Any chance one of you fine gentlemen could tell from a couple snaps if our engine color is ballpark?
If it's going to need re-painted, then we'll pull it before adding oil and firing it off.
On the stand with no oil - opening it up will be irresistible.
Looks like this project might go to fully apart sooner than later?
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Very nice project?just when you think we have no more 65 GS builds going another good one pops up. Car looks complete and still correct under the hood which is the hard stuff to find. Your engine is the same color as mine which is sorta correct but not as good as some others I have seen. The correct color has a shade more bluish tint and maybe someone has found a good supplier. The color I used was originally a diesel color that was very close. Not sure if Bill Hirsh paint is still out there but it was a better match in my opinion. Let us know how it runs and hook up a live gauge to the oil pressure before you fire it.
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But don't go as blue as the valve cover bolt!
For some unknown reason (to me anyway), there are a lot of pics of blue Buick engines online. I don't know if it's just the camera/pic or if a bunch got painted blue at some point.
Bill Hirsch and POR-15 offer Buick Green engine paint.
https://por15.com/collections/all/products/engine-enamel?variant=39607020945575 (https://por15.com/collections/all/products/engine-enamel?variant=39607020945575)
https://www.hirschauto.com/ENGINE-ENAMEL/productinfo/EE-QUART/BUI%20GRN%20LT/ (https://www.hirschauto.com/ENGINE-ENAMEL/productinfo/EE-QUART/BUI%20GRN%20LT/)
Some have used the Detroit Diesel Alpine Green.
Cool V-Dubs!
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Thanks for the assistance gentlemen.
Went by and got another pic in different light.
Maybe this can help determine if we indeed have Buick Green?
A phone camera or computer screen might change the way it looks?
This is a tough one.
If our color is decently close to Buick Green,
I would be -real- happy to skip re-painting a fresh engine.
Cannot help but feel that Ray the builder would have bought what was sold as Buick Green.
How close does it have to be?
Were there variations from the factory?
Could a real show judge tell if the green was wrong?
Some retail brands do not mix colors accurately?
This is all fascinating to a colorblind guy.
If you told me that block was blue or grey Id believe you.
A great way to suddenly appear a complete idiot to someone who sees colors! :angel4:
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Looks like Buick green to me.
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Me too. I've not experienced judges getting too wrapped up in the exact color.
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To me, it looks like the correct green with some age to it.
From a judging aspect, you would get dinged for the orange balancer and crank pully re-enforcement piece. Along with dirt and rust showing.
The thing to keep in mind, from a judging point of view is that the vehicle should look as it would have when presented to the first owner. If you are interested in having a car judged at a BCA event.
Loren
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I believe mine was painted Detroit diesel green because it was the closest thing I could find and it definitely looks different in picture from reality. If you see an original 65 GS the color may look different in a pic.
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/53f76ddce4b0ba6a4c5b0e49/1413644487801-VX6S8Q5A6FDFCK3WD65Q/Buick+Green?format=2500w
As far as pic goes this is the closest I have seen on how it may actually look but blue and green always come out funny like red and yellow.
Mine and many others seem too green in the pics but look normal in daylight and the colors we have used do appear very correct for an aged engine. I have some original pics where the color is blueish and faded to a lighter green with time. There is a newer duplicolor engine color that I was curious about also but have not used it. I personally believe the color you have looks as correct as any we have used but I still think the diesel color looks faded.
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There are three different "Buick" greens, depending on the model year.
An early green used from 1922-1930. Then another green used from 1933-1938. The third green was used from 1953-1965. These are all different shades of green.
The year gaps are filled by a Charcoal Grey [ 1939-1940] and a Turquoise [1942-1952].
Just a little history,
Loren
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Oh, man, so glad to hear this..
We pulled the dipstick and there was oil in the pan.
Re-painting that motor likely would involve a full teardown and tanking if the paint was going to stick.
Dag,
I keep looking at this:
https://www.nailheadbuick.com/26-most-common-mistakes (https://www.nailheadbuick.com/26-most-common-mistakes)
Even tho the PO was obviously a skilled builder and had motors throughout his shop,
This makes me SO nervous to just fire off that numbers-matching motor! :violent5:
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....
I keep looking at this:
https://www.nailheadbuick.com/26-most-common-mistakes (https://www.nailheadbuick.com/26-most-common-mistakes)
....
I wouldn't worry toooo much. If your heads aren't leaking water into the cylinders (from valve seat inserts) and you have decent oil pressure (35-40), you should be ok. If you have valve stem seals on the exhausts, consider taking those off. If cam timing is way off, valves are going to hit pistons.... that will be.... obvious. Do check the tightness of your balancer bolt. Looks like your balancer was replaced (as it's red). Sometimes the outer ring slips if the rubber goes bad. Or if it was loose, it can wobble and wear the crank snout. I do wonder if that red balancer was used if/when they balanced it.
A good engine builder will get most items right. But sometimes they do work on a Nailhead like they do other engines which could be an issue, like installing hardened valve seats, exhaust seals, and too long oil threaded galley plugs in the front (make sure you have oil to your rockers).
You do want to check ignition timing, especially total timing. Originally, there was a rubber 'advance limit bushing' that is likely long gone. You only want 30-32* total advance (initial + mechanical). If the bushing is gone, you may have too much timing, leading to detonation.
A rebuild can lower compression ratio. Replacement pistons sit lower in the bores by 0.010" or more, and thicker composition head gaskets lower compression even more. Could be under 9:1 by now. If they shave the piston tops to 'run on today's gas', they're making a lazy 8:1 motor.
I've had Felpro head gaskets on my engine since 1992..... they still don't leak.
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Yep?.mine was rebuilt several years before I bought the car. I had receipts from builder and the car had already been ran a few thousand miles when I started restoration. I know lots of guys that would tear it all down and start over?.common sense says you are silly to fix it if it is not broke. Carb should probably be a 3921 Carter which is pretty easy to rebuild. Good oil pressure,compression,and coolant pressure test should be enough to give it a try. I have used Gardner exhaust on my original restorations and it simply fits without issue with correct manifolds. The fuel line clips go on the front two bolts of the oil pan for correct routing and I think that flywheel has to be clocked correctly. If you have any vibration it can be bolted on wrong. I also think your car may be a California build because the vented cap on the driver side valve cover goes to the air cleaner on Fremont cars. The air cleaner and vent is unique compared to other factories.
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Great stuff guys - any/all info very much appreciated. :sunny:
I keep thinking if the balancer has slipped,
Did they set the installed height of the valve springs,
And those threaded oil galley plugs..
On and on..
While i have some of you guys attention-
:icon_biggrin:
Did the 401 have french locks on the exhaust manifold bolts?
What is the correct finish for exhaust manifolds?
Were all the engine fasteners installed, then painted,
Or should some be still in their finishes?
Things like head bolts or valley pan bolts or intake manifold.
Then that makes me wonder what those finishes are.
Say, zinc, cad, black oxide?
Same with what to paint which color.
Timing cover and crossover tube are all green, right?
Balancer and pulleys black.
PS pump bracket green, alt bracket black..?
Anyplace here where these details have been discussed?
Been looking i promise.
Im obviously going to have to be painting some stuff,
Might as well do it right.
Been looking at motor compartments here,
its usually hard to see details,
And i have no way of knowing if what I?m looking at is correct or not. :tongue3:
Which one of you guys has a right proper restored or original car?
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Lol?.cwmcobra,dsags,Loren,Brian Stone car can be googled?.a lot of very nice cars that are legit on details. These guys and others have spent a lot of time putting out info to show the correctness for a judged car. I have ran into a few snags on what is and is not available as far as correct parts under the hood. If you look at the projects and restorations section there are plenty of pics and info that is likely not found anywhere else on the web. Quite simply put most 1965 Buick GS cars in the real world are not really 65 GS cars. I?m trying to remember the last legit project that was started?.John E. was doing a total restoration and there are a few others going that are looking good. These cars were getting difficult to find twenty years ago so we see very few in the condition of the one you are working on.
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Excellent...
Figured that would get a response.
"Anybody around here have a nice car?" LOL :icon_biggrin:
Thanks for pointing me to the ones who got them correct.
Often, you have restomods or cars that aren't complete enough for a true resto.
They will be nice and fixed up, but what's truly correct isn't given a ton of consideration.
This one we got here the pressure is on.
I feel it.
There's a responsibility to something bigger than just me.
The history.
If that makes any sense...
In other car circles, there's what i call the "Antiques Roadshow" phenomena;
"Yeah, this desk was owned by Ben Franklin, but since you refinished it, it's worth a fraction of what it was originally".
Preservation is the new buzzword.
"They're only original once".
That car's been restroyed(!)
Well, this one we got here is rotten - no WAY we're going to be driving it ratty like it is.
Just the smell is a no-go with preservation.
It's also a re-paint.
So, resto it is.
With that comes a responsibility, because the car is so complete and original.
Nobody will ever mistake a restored car for a survivor,
But i want to do as much as possible.
There's a '70 Stage1 that makes our local cars n' coffee that's to die for.
I don't know much,
but the clamps and the printing on the hoses, and the little warning stickers,
Peer into that compartment, and if it ain't all 100% correct/original it sure fools me.
I realize what it takes to do that.
It's a "lifetime achievement" kind of thing.
That guy has a huge portion of his life into that car.
With Buddy's Midnight Aqua '65 here,
The things that are deep in, I'll attend to as best my ability,
And we can leave easily changed details for perfecting over time.
For example,
Want to go right now 100% as best i can with the engine itself.
Fasteners, paint colors, casting numbers,
it's worth it to get that right first time through because we won't do it again.
Things like the alternator - correct hoses and clamps, fan shroud,
We might chase down after the car is back together,
Since we have a brand-new (incorrect) alternator already, for example.
Because this is such a huge project,
I'm trying to get my head around it.
Put together a strategy, prioritize.
I really really want to get the body finishes right.
Get the undercoating spatter pattern correct for a Fremont car,
Red oxide primer in the right places inside,
Stuff like that.
Things we're only doing once we'll try and do correctly.
Everything 'deep in' needs done right.
Whoo... Find and learn to shoot acrylic lacquer? :notworthy:
Where to draw the line?
Anyhow,
There's another long rambling rant...
If any of you guys have strategy advice for me I'm all ears.
Getting deep for the 'intro' section here.
Will put up a build thread once things really start happening.
Big thanks to all of you fine gentlemen who have taken the time.
I read every word several times and take it all to heart.
Know that i plan to do justice.
We have a very special car here,
And i don't want to be the guy who messed it up forever.
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A couple of the most accurate restorations would be Mark Ascher's 4 speed hardtop, Chuck Miller's 4 speed convertible. Both of these have extensive threads here.
Mark's thread: https://65gs.com/board/index.php/topic,20.0.html
Chuck's thread: https://65gs.com/board/index.php/topic,2075.0.html
Loren
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Here's a good thread covering the engine color detailing.
https://65gs.com/board/index.php/topic,269.0.html
As for the exhaust manifolds, blast them, paint with Calyx manifold dressing as one example. Also, french locks were used on the exhaust manifolds. They have been reproduced.
Loren
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I have the French locks in stainless, in stock, IF that may be of any help.
Tom T.
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I have the French locks in stainless, in stock, IF that may be of any help.
Tom T.
Thank you, Tom, for reminding me .
I've added this information to the "65 Skylark & GS Parts Sources" in the Q&A section.
Loren
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Thank you Loren.
Tom T.
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Excellent info gents.
We'll be in touch for parts for sure.