65GS.com - Buick Gran Sport Enthusiasts!
Drivetrain => The Nailhead => Topic started by: elagache on January 29, 2018, 01:32:45 PM
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Dear mid-60s Buick owners who don't like "it" (their car's engine bay) hot. :sunny:
Since my trusty wagon's engine is still out of action, I have been looking to options to reduce the engine bay temperature. As far as I can tell, Jet-Hot coatings has the best performing coatings to trap heat in the exhaust headers:
https://www.jet-hot.com/ (https://www.jet-hot.com/)
It is a hassle to send headers over there, but I can see that my wagon's engine bay is too hot and this might be the reason the electronic fuel injection is quitting on me. I made a quick check of "da' usual resources" and I haven't seen any screaming problems with Jet-Hot. Anybody around here have an opinion about them? Any personal experiences? Perhaps most importantly of all, any bright ideas about shipping TA-Performance competition long-tube headers (TA 2014CHC) such that they arrive in the same condition that they left my house?
A curious mind would definitely like to know! :icon_scratch:
Cheers, Edouard :occasion14:
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Dear mid-60s Buick owners who like a cool engine bay (in more ways than one!)
I went ahead and had my trusty wagon's exhaust headers coated by Jet-Hot. I picked their best insulating coating in the hopes that would lower the engine bay temperatures enough to resolve the heat-soak problem I was having with the electronic fuel injection components. The headers had been previously ceramic coated by a local shop. Here is the driver's side header with the old coating:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Jet-Hot-recoating-of-exhaust-headers/i-zv8JWmL/0/23754474/XL/Biquette%27s%20port%20exhaust%20header-XL.jpg) (https://canebas.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Jet-Hot-recoating-of-exhaust-headers/i-zv8JWmL/A)
It definitely looked very nice and it was providing some additional heat insulation over the product that the headers originally came with. However, you can see the damage done by scraping the headers against the ground and near the top of the headers you can see that some of the coating has been removed by the leaks in the heads.
Here is the Jet-Hot coating on the same header:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Jet-Hot-recoating-of-exhaust-headers/i-Q3mt5C2/0/fe0c92a2/XL/Recoated%20port%20header-XL.jpg) (https://canebas.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Jet-Hot-recoating-of-exhaust-headers/i-Q3mt5C2/A)
These coatings aren't as shiny in order to accomplish the additional insulation. Here is the passenger side header before:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Jet-Hot-recoating-of-exhaust-headers/i-FMfNF9x/0/60a017e9/XL/Biquette%27s%20starboard%20header%20before%20recoating-XL.jpg) (https://canebas.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Jet-Hot-recoating-of-exhaust-headers/i-FMfNF9x/A)
Here is that header with the Jet-Hot coatings:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Jet-Hot-recoating-of-exhaust-headers/i-fxRcJpQ/0/784be6e4/XL/Recoated%20starboard%20header-XL.jpg) (https://canebas.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Jet-Hot-recoating-of-exhaust-headers/i-fxRcJpQ/A)
So the next test will be to see after the engine is installed once more if the electronic fuel injection components become more reliable.
Cheers, Edouard :occasion14:
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Scraping headers seems to be oh so common on these cars. Got to watch those speed bumps and slow pedestrians. :dontknow:
Any news on the engine ?
Loren
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Dear Loren and owners of mid-60s Buick with limited ground clearance,
Scraping headers seems to be oh so common on these cars. Got to watch those speed bumps and slow pedestrians. :dontknow:
Not only speed bumps, but steep ramps, pavement disturbed by tree roots, etc. I'll definitely try to be more careful, but the headers are quite low on my wagon. I can't imagine anyone trying to live with a car like this that rides even lower than stock!
Any news on the engine ?
Well, Mike at TA-Performance swapped the first set of Johnson lifters for a second set and this set is as quiet as anything he has installed. So he is hoping to button up the engine soon and send me a total so I can get a check in the mail. Perhaps the wait won't be too much longer.
Thanks for your support!! :thumbsup:
Cheers, Edouard :occasion14:
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Hi,
Not sure on how much heat reduction in the engine compartment, but it does last and look good for a long time, I have a Toyota Pickup that I put a jet coated header on back in 2005 and still looks like new even living in the rust belt
Good luck with getting the car back on the road
Regards,
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Well, Mike at TA-Performance swapped the first set of Johnson lifters for a second set and this set is as quiet as anything he has installed. So he is hoping to button up the engine soon and send me a total so I can get a check in the mail. Perhaps the wait won't be too much longer.
That's really good news, Edouard! You've been waiting a LONG time and we've been as impatient as you are to see and hear the results. Hope we'll all be satisfied with good news soon. :icon_thumright:
Chuck
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....
Scraping headers seems to be oh so common on these cars. .....but the headers are quite low on my wagon. I can't imagine anyone trying to live with a car like this that rides even lower than stock!
Taller tires on the front will increase header-to-ground clearance. I recall you were considering new tires anyway.
I unfortunately went the other way not realizing how much of a difference it makes.....
My blue '66 had 225/70-15's on the front. I switched to a 235/60-15 and now the Kustom headers scrape on the slightest bump in the road. I plan on making a pie cut in the header collector and rewelding to give me some more ground clearance. I just got a TIG welder so this should be a good job for it.
Good to hear your engine will soon be on it's way home!
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Wow this post goes in several directions. Here's my $.02 for what it is worth:
Ceramic coating will lower engine compartment temps. You decide on the brand be now they are all pretty good. i was an early adopter and sent mine someplace in Connecticut if i remember correctly. This was back in the late 1990's. Make sure the coat the INSIDE and OUTSIDE if you want any noticeable results. Added benefit, more horsepower if you can keep the heat in the pipes.
As far as the fuel injected motor running hot, the leaner the engine runs the hotter it will get. 14.7 to 1 is great on for Suburban but I suspect these old inefficient engines like it a bit richer. Controlling the engine temp should outweigh and fuel mileage loss.
Noisy valve train. been there done that even got the t shirt. Problem 1, the push rods have 2 different tip styles. the big round ball ends or the more modern looking end. Some lifters will accept the ball style and some will not. They have pushrods one end old style and one end new style. Lastly, they come in many lengths since the stock drivetrain is not adjustable. That's all from experience, if you want a more professional opinion I'd suggest talking to Tom Telesco or Carmen Fasco especially if you plan to use anything adjustable in the valve train.
Finally, header clearance. Many of you know my car, it sits a slight bit higher than stock with 215/65R15's on the front. I still have the old "club" headers which I thought was a copy of the Kustom headers from back in the day. I've never whacked them. (Some one else managed the ding the D/S one however) I don't consider them a low hanging header although I've seen headers on our cars that hang quite low.
As always, just trying to contribute. I'm not an expert although i played one in Vette Magazine once. :icon_salut:
Recently downsized out of my career and very bored,
Jerry
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Dear Jim, Chuck, Walt, Jerry, and mid-60s Buick caregivers,
Not sure on how much heat reduction in the engine compartment, but it does last and look good for a long time, I have a Toyota Pickup that I put a jet coated header on back in 2005 and still looks like new even living in the rust belt
Jet-Hot has some coating formulations specifically made to trap heat inside the heaters:
https://www.jet-hot.com/thermal-barrier/ (https://www.jet-hot.com/thermal-barrier/)
I decided to go with those coatings because according to a December 2017 article in Car Craft the proper coating reduce the engine bay temperatures by 50? F!
Taller tires on the front will increase header-to-ground clearance. I recall you were considering new tires anyway.
Yes indeed! I need to revisit the thread where I got all your good advice! The tires on my wagon have been left sitting now for two long spells. They need to be replaced ASAP.
Ceramic coating will lower engine compartment temps. You decide on the brand be now they are all pretty good. i was an early adopter and sent mine someplace in Connecticut if i remember correctly. This was back in the late 1990's. Make sure the coat the INSIDE and OUTSIDE if you want any noticeable results. Added benefit, more horsepower if you can keep the heat in the pipes.
Yes, this is all correct. Jet-Hot does coat the inside and outside of the heaters.
As far as the fuel injected motor running hot, the leaner the engine runs the hotter it will get. 14.7 to 1 is great on for Suburban but I suspect these old inefficient engines like it a bit richer. Controlling the engine temp should outweigh and fuel mileage loss.
Yes, ultimately I gave up on tuning for fuel economy and instead went for "mellow and quiet." My wagon's engine is substantially quieter than the Chevy small-block in Orinda Motors shuttle wagon.
Noisy valve train. been there done that even got the t shirt.
This engine has modern components including a hydraulic roller cam and roller rockers and lifters. As a result, it is a bit more noisy than a stock Buick big-block. However, the issue never was normal noise. Out of the blue the engine developed a ticking sound and nothing we could do here in Orinda solved the problem. Mike Tomaszewski concluded that it was the brand of lifters what was the problem and he switched to a more trustworthy brand.
Thanks for all your support! :icon_thumright:
Cheers, Edouard
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This engine has modern components including a hydraulic roller cam and roller rockers and lifters. As a result, it is a bit more noisy than a stock Buick big-block.
Edouard and all,
I feel the need to correct a bit of this statement. There is no reason that adding roller bearing components into lifters and rocker arms should add any noise to the system. In a properly functioning hydraulic valvetrain, other than overspeeding the engine, about the only source for unusual noise is wear in the valvetrain components (including valve guides) or a sticky hydraulic lifter. Wear creates a different animal with respect to noise. But if the noise is created by sticky lifters, it results from the valve(s) hitting the valve seats in the cylinder heads at too high a velocity. The closing ramp designed into the cam profile seats the valves gently during normal operation. If a hydraulic lifter gets sticky or stuck internally, it creates a gap (lash) in the system and the valve no longer closes on the ramp of the cam, creating the ticking noise that we all dread. The valve hitting the seat too hard. If not fixed, it will lead to wear of both the seats on the valves and in the cylinder heads. A properly designed hydraulic valvetrain system shouldn't care whether it has roller components or not, with respect to noise. It will definitely like the lower friction though. :thumbsup:
I'll add that in modern engines that have many roller components in their hydraulic valvetrains, many exhibit ticking noise that sounds like valve noise. What's actually heard at idle is the internal workings of the fuel injectors. I'm no expert on those, but know that many confuse fuel injector noise for valvetrain noise.
Off my soapbox. I sincerely hope that your engine with the freshly rebuilt valvetrain will be every bit as quiet as a stock Buick big-block. There's no reason that it shouldn't!
:cheers2:
Chuck
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Chuck, please feel free to jump on your soapbox as often as you like, I always learn something reading your soapbox talk or SBT.
One other note on headers, in addition to generating excessive heat in both the engine and passengers compartment, damaging spark plug wires and any other wiring that get near them, burning fingers, reducing clearance, dragging on speed bumps, generating excessive noise, making it more difficult to remove starters and engines, increasing engine oil and transmission temps. They also pass very close to the brake distribution block or brake distribution valve if equipped on 'A' Body cars creating conditions for boiling the brake fluid (see below, use wet temps) and in the case of a distribution valve damaging 'o' rings.
Ok, I admit it, I'm biased, unless I'm going to the track, I don't like headers for street use.
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Chuck, I too enjoy your soapbox sessions, as well as your quest for the perfect, correct car. As far as headers, the best thing I did for my car was to remove them.
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Funny, I love the headers (sound and ok) on my Astro blue convertible and the black 66 but I would not put them on the other 2 cars. On mine the headers don?t rub and make the car sound more like a muscle car. For my white 65 and the other convertible I don?t see headers as a part of the project, different goals and purpose.
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Dear Chuck, Kevin, Glenn, Jim, and mid-60s Buick caregivers,
I feel the need to correct a bit of this statement. There is no reason that adding roller bearing components into lifters and rocker arms should add any noise to the system.
Well your points are valid, but Mike Tomaszewski was so desperate to understand what was wrong with my wagon's engine that he tried swapping in a set of stock rockers to compare. He reports that they were a bit quieter. That really is reasonable since Buick had to live up to their reputation as a luxury car maker, while aftermarket rockers are indeed for performance not quiet.
Off my soapbox. I sincerely hope that your engine with the freshly rebuilt valvetrain will be every bit as quiet as a stock Buick big-block. There's no reason that it shouldn't!
Thanks for the encouragement! Although the noise level really wasn't the problem to start with. The engine wasn't working correctly last year. That's why I sent it back to TA-Performance. It definitely needed new head castings at least.
Ok, I admit it, I'm biased, unless I'm going to the track, I don't like headers for street use.
If I had the luxury of starting this project over with a clean sheet of paper, I don't know what I would do. Nonetheless, I do have a friend who runs headers in his daily drivers whenever possible. His goal is the same as mine - improved fuel economy. Certainly this project has suffered horribly from my naivety of these sorts of details. For a daily driver, it is definitely imperative to have the best insulating coatings you can get for the headers.
I'm just not your typical classic car owner. Biquette was our only car for almost 10 years. As such she became more of a pet than just transportation. It is rather miraculous that the car survived all these years. Having to take care of just one car doesn't give you the background of experience to make good choices like how to have a custom engine put together. I have most definitely paid dearly for my ignorance.
Oh well, . . . Edouard
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I've run headers virtually the entire time I'm had Ruthy. Love the sound. Hate everything else that comes with headers.
If I had the choice now, I would gladly ditch them for a nice exhaust that is tucked right up in the undercarriage, without leaks.
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Dear Iain and mid-60s Buick owners who wish there was a bit more space under da' hood.
I've run headers virtually the entire time I'm had Ruthy. Love the sound. Hate everything else that comes with headers.
Honestly I'm not a big fan of the noise, but I do find the sound "extremely satisfying" when passing a biker who insists on being on the white line of the road instead of being in a generous bike lane provided for him (or her) . . . . (http://www.canebas.org/WeatherCat/Forum_support_documents/Custom_emoticons/mischief.gif)
If I had the choice now, I would gladly ditch them for a nice exhaust that is tucked right up in the undercarriage, without leaks.
Headers or not, having a nice tight exhaust system is always within grasp . . . . . so long as you have enough of these! . . . . (http://www.canebas.org/WeatherCat/Forum_support_documents/Custom_emoticons/dollar.gif)
Cheers, Edouard :occasion14:
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Hey gang, I'm glad this stirred up some great conversation. I'm amazed as to how polarizing the exhaust header debate is. Since the anti header sentiment seems to be more prevalent I had to put in a plug for the pro header side Ok, let me start by saying they do not belong on a "stock' or properly restored car. That said, even mildly modified engines will benefit from headers. (Have you ever taken a really good look at the D/S exh manifold design or lack there of) I want to only speak to my experience because I'm sure there are plenty of bad header stories. I have never burnt up anything under the hood in over 20 years from the headers. The paint on the hood is fine despite not having the heat pads installed. I have the rubber 'flaps" over the control arms removed to allow extra air in and out of the engine compartment. I've driven the car from northern NJ to Youngstown OH round trip 3 times (about 410 miles one way) with a passenger in the summer time with no complaints of excessive heat. We drove at or above the speed limit and only stopped for fuel. All three trips the car had different gear ratios. First 3.08, second 3.36, and third 3.55. (OK the last trip was a little noisy).
They are a little more maintenance than stock. You need to occasionally tighten the bolts, the collector flanges will eventually leak and need to be serviced, You have to build your exhaust systems. Other than the SS Flowmaster 2.5" exact fit tail pipes you are on your own. And as pointed out, they are worth the trouble if you race the car. Full disclosure I do enjoy racing mine. I've occasionally run them "uncorked' just for fun. A Nailhead with open headers is music to a Buick guy.
Thanks for letting me ramble. I'm sure I won't change anyone's opinion, but I just wanted to add my story to the pile of header stories.
Thanks!!
Jerry
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Dear Jerry and mid-60s Buick owners with open minds, . . .
Hey gang, I'm glad this stirred up some great conversation. I'm amazed as to how polarizing the exhaust header debate is. Since the anti header sentiment seems to be more prevalent I had to put in a plug for the pro header side . . . .
Thanks for letting me ramble. I'm sure I won't change anyone's opinion, but I just wanted to add my story to the pile of header stories.
Thanks for sharing your point of view! Buicks may be less popular, but there are enough of them out there that they can be decked out with either headers or manifolds. After all, these are our Buicks, we should be able to have them our way! :glasses9:
Cheers, Edouard :occasion14:
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Dear Jerry and mid-60s Buick owners with open minds, . . .
Thanks for sharing your point of view! Buicks may be less popular, but there are enough of them out there that they can be decked out with either headers or manifolds. After all, these are our Buicks, we should be able to have them our way! :glasses9:
Cheers, Edouard :occasion14:
Couldn't agree more !
Loren
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Since the engine was done by T/A in the 1st. place isn't it HIS responsibility (warranty) to supply GOOD parts instead of proven inferior parts???? I'm going through this right now & it's MOSTLY been at my cost, time, etc.
Just sayin'.
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Tom, This was originally JW at Tri-Shields work. I followed it on V8 Buick and it became a hot mess there and for Edouard. I can't speak for him, but I think he just wanted it out of his JW's hands. Sorry, if I misspoke in any way and that I brought you back there Edouard. I thought they were pretty bad to you there in general. I have done similar to you. You don't have to give second chances. Sometimes it is just better to move on.
Steve
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I know that Steve & read ALL the info previous & it was COMPLETELY REDONE by T/A.
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I think Mike will eventually make good on his part. Tom, I thought you were unaware of where it was built in the"1st place." Ta was the 2nd place. I am not sure what was left in from the original build.
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Dear Tom, Steve, and mid-60 Buick owners who aren't into soap operas,
Since the engine was done by T/A in the 1st. place isn't it HIS responsibility (warranty) to supply GOOD parts instead of proven inferior parts???? I'm going through this right now & it's MOSTLY been at my cost, time, etc.
Just sayin'.
I know that Steve & read ALL the info previous & it was COMPLETELY REDONE by T/A.
No the engine wasn't completely redone by a long shot. Most of the components including the Morel lifters came from the original build by JW. Mike Tomaszewski did everything he could to keep the costs down because basically I was paying for a second rebuild. So any component that seemed okay Mike put back. The real tragedy of this exercise is that JW and the gang on V-8 Buick used this engine as an excuse to do some research and development on what modern engine components would do for a Buick big-block. When Mike looked over the specs, this was a racing engine - not the conservative tow vehicle engine that I wanted JW to build for me. Mike didn't simply put the engine back together. He changed as many of the parameters as he could to get this engine to be more reasonable for the intended goal. For example, the compression ratio went down from 10.2:1 to 9.65:1. Still, Mike wasn't given a clean sheet of paper to design a big-block Buick engine specifically for towing.
The engine that came back from TA-Performance was much more civilized and upgrading the electronic fuel injection further tamed it so I could enjoy driving my wagon once more. It is clear that the blemished Stage-2 head castings that JW bought from TA-Performance should never have been used on a engine intended for a customer. Those heads finally started crumbling while at TA-Performance and they have been replaced with some quality castings. Since Mike swapped the in Johnson lifters the ticking sound is gone. I'm hoping that I might be finally coming to the end of this nightmare.
I'll be the first to admit I had some really idealistic hopes for this project, but after all, it was the wagon that I grew up in. I really wanted to save this car in a big way. I'm hopeful I'll eventually succeed, but there is no denying this sure has been the hard way.
Oh well, . . . . . Edouard
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My apologies to Mike & crew. Some of the explained stuff was unknown, or maybe better, unread by myself.
Again, my apologies. No bad thoughts intended.
Tom T.