65GS.com - Buick Gran Sport Enthusiasts!
Classifieds => Parts Wanted => Topic started by: cwmcobra on September 17, 2016, 08:18:45 PM
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Anybody know if the return spring that surrounds the t/o bearing actuation rod in the bellhousing is available? I can't find one and am not sure it was there when I disassembled the engine. I'll keep looking, but suspect I'll need one.
Thanks,
Chuck
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The question came up years ago on V8Buick. He found a decent match from Lee Spring. Pics and dimensions here:
http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?101791-GS-bell-housing-throwout-return-spring (http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?101791-GS-bell-housing-throwout-return-spring)
You can try some industrial suppliers like Graingers:
https://www.grainger.com/category/torsion-springs/springs/hardware/ecatalog/N-mgg#nav=%2Fcategory%2Ftorsion-springs%2Fsprings%2Fhardware%2Fecatalog%2FN-mggZ1z0aklz (https://www.grainger.com/category/torsion-springs/springs/hardware/ecatalog/N-mgg#nav=%2Fcategory%2Ftorsion-springs%2Fsprings%2Fhardware%2Fecatalog%2FN-mggZ1z0aklz)
Or McMaster Carr:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#torsion-springs/=1480s4s (http://www.mcmaster.com/#torsion-springs/=1480s4s)
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Thanks Walt. I've done some research on those springs and see that there are a couple that will probably work. The problem I see is not knowing the spring force that is required and matching it to the stock springs that are available. And Brian tells me that the force should be higher than from the factory since the clutch pedals seem to sag over time, indicating that there is not enough margin in the force to offset reducing spring force over time.
I've found that my bellhousing did not come with a torsion spring. Not surprising since the 4-speed was swapped in many years ago, so I wouldn't necessarily expect all the factory parts to be there. Instead, my car has a return spring attached to the top of the clutch pedal and to the underside of the dash. I didn't notice any play in the pedal before disassembly, but wasn't particularly paying attention for it either. Pictures attached.
Would you guys be comfortable leaving the torsion spring out and relying on the pedal return spring? Or would by recommend doing both? I'd like to avoid the engineering project of making a stock torsion spring work, but also don't want to create the potential for teardown required in the future.
Cheers!
Chuck
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Chuck,
I think you need the one in the flywheel housing even if you do put on an additional spring. The one in the flywheel housing compresses the slack in the system and pulls the clutch release bearing completely off the pressure plate. If you take up the slack from the pedal end, it expands everything and can leave the release bearing touching the pressure plate. No matter how much you repair/replace joints in the linkage system, there is still going to be some slack in the system.
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Agreed, keep the bellhousing spring.
My stock spring specs are:
0.120" wire diameter (with paint?)
1.220" ID
1.462" OD
270 degree deflection
Right hand wind
approx 8 coils
The McMaster 9271k131 looks close:
0.135" wire diameter
1.112" ID
1.666" OD
9.75 coils
42.86 inch lbs of torque.
I'll guess this has a higher torque than stock due to the larger wire size. Most other springs are in the 28-42 in lb range.
Lee Spring has a wider selection and is a closer match to the original:
http://www.leespring.com/browse_catalog.asp?rbunitOfMeasure=Imperial&springType=T&partnum=&UnitOfMeasure=imperial&specsCriteria=&subType=&isMIL=&pageNumber=99 (http://www.leespring.com/browse_catalog.asp?rbunitOfMeasure=Imperial&springType=T&partnum=&UnitOfMeasure=imperial&specsCriteria=&subType=&isMIL=&pageNumber=99)
The LTR115R 05 M (or S for stainless) is 0.115" wire and has a torque rating of 28 in lbs...... may be closer to stock.
I don't see the torque rating being too critical... the spring has a simple job to do. You don't want less than stock, but I can't think of a downside to a stronger one.
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Thanks for the advice and the detailed specs. I spent some time yesterday going over the specs on the Lee, McMaster and Grainger springs that are available. If I go this route, I'd like to buy an assortment and check them out before making a final selection.
Meanwhile, my engine is patiently waiting for its mate. I think Brian will like the color of the clutch housing. Kind of brightens it up, don't you think? :-)
Chuck
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Your going to really like that center force clutch! So much smoother ,less effort, and grabs so hard! I have one in the post car , what a difference over stock!
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Well, today was my lucky day. I talked with a good friend who is also a 65 GS fan and found that he has a bellhousing with the shaft, yoke and spring available. I'll be taking that off his hands and will use at least the spring in my restoration build. Before I do, I'd like to take some spring force measurements to add confidence to substituting one or more of the stock torsion springs available. I'll post conclusions as they are made.
Chuck
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That'll be good info to add to our database here..... for the next time someone needs a spring.
While we're kinda on the subject, Buick added a grease fitting to that yoke shaft to keep it from binding. There's a welch plug in the bell sealing the hole for the shaft. Add a grease fitting to that plug.
There was a service bulletin on it in 65 or 66.
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Great information, thanks Walt. Also while on the subject, I see there is a seal that is to be installed on the large diameter "ball" on the end of the shaft where it mates with the Z-Bar actuator. I haven't seen that anywhere. What are you guys using for that? My best DIY approach is to use a piece of rear main rope seal that looks like it might fit. Or, is it simply an O-ring that needs to be properly sized to that diameter?
Chuck
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X2 on the Centerforce clutch. We had one in a 4 speed cuda, huge difference.
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X3, I'm already a fan. Also have one in my Cobra replica. Absolutely no complaints!
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:occasion16:
I was thinking of using somebody like this to make a spring:
http://www.leespring.com/torsion_spec.asp?springType=T&forWhat=Search (http://www.leespring.com/torsion_spec.asp?springType=T&forWhat=Search)
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^^^^^ Their LTR115R 05 M looks real close to my original, but a 300 degree version (custom) would be a better match.
Lee Spring could form the correct ends for us too!
Might be worth seeing if they can make a small run of correct replacements.
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Before installing the torsion spring in my bellhousing, I did a lot of measuring and force testing. I didn't find any stock springs that were super close in design, but I'm sure some would work. Attached is a drawing done online at the Acxess Spring site that is as close as I can come to duplicating the original design, of course minus the hook and eye on the ends of the legs. Pictures of the spring are also attached. For those interested in the paint markings, it appears to have dark green paint on it. Might be Verde Green, for all I know. :-)
Cheers!
Chuck
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To compare measurements with those that Walt provided, here is what I came up with:
Walt's stock spring specs:
0.120" wire diameter (with paint?)
1.220" ID
1.462" OD
270 degree deflection
Right hand wind
approx 8 coils
My measurements:
0.122" wire diameter (with paint?)
1.226" ID
1.482" OD
308 degree deflection
Right hand wind
6.85 active coils (looks like 7)
Added measurements:
Moment arm: 1.32" (length of moving leg)
Stationary leg length: 1.45"
Length at rest: 0.847"
13 lbs. force at 90 degrees rotation
19 lbs. force at 135 degrees rotation
25 lbs. force at 180 degrees rotation
Chuck
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Anyone come up with the best replacement yet? Or like Walt said, see if Lee can make a run of replacements? I need one for my '66. Holding me up from putting the motor in!!!! It's only been out of the car for 12 years.
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Soooo, I got a quote from Lee Spring to make us up a batch of 20. $81.60 a piece. Yikes. They would also need a blueprint or a sample. I don't mind fronting the project if someone wants to send me their original as I don't have one. Also would like to get 10 committed/sold before I pull the trigger. 5 week turn around. Of course I need one now to get my motor back in. Ugh.
Stupid springs. boing boing boing.
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Hi Sean,
If you go to the last post on the previous page, I posted a drawing of the basic spring design created from measurements of an original. Doesn't have the eyes on the free ends, but the rest is pretty accurate. I didn't have time to get a quote from Axcess Spring where I made the drawing on their website. You might want to have them quote it as well as Lee Spring and figure out the best approach. I'd be willing buy a spare and suspect others might as well.
If you would like to talk directly, PM me and we can share contact info.
Chuck
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Hi Chuck,
I copied that info and used that to get the quote from Lee along with the pictures. I'll try to get a quote from Axcess as well.
Sean
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Is the clutch return spring the torsional spring in the bell housing? I found what is claimed to be the spring on eBay that claims to be the right spring, however not sure 100%. I had to add a external clutch spring to mine to get by. One end in the clevis pin hole in the clutch linkage and the other in the frame hole. Works good but not the real fix just temporary.
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Yes, that's the spring that's needed. If we had an original to send for a spring maker to copy, that would be the best approach. Are you planning to buy the one on Ebay? If not, I'll have a look at it and try to buy it as a sample to replicate.
Chuck
Edit: Just looked on Ebay and if the spring you saw is the one from The Parts Place, it is not correct. That's a tension spring; we need a torsion spring. See pictures on the previous page of this thread.
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Yes I did buy on last summer and put it in the trunk for a later day project. Since the fix works great I will most likely not touch it till next spring.If I remember I paid only $12.50. Years ago I needed a torsional spring for one of my dirt bikes and went to a local spring factory and was I shocked at the quantity and price so I had a tool maker make me one out of spring steel.
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Yes I did buy on last summer and put it in the trunk for a later day project. Since the fix works great I will most likely not touch it till next spring.If I remember I paid only $12.50. Years ago I needed a torsional spring for one of my dirt bikes and went to a local spring factory and was I shocked at the quantity and price so I had a tool maker make me one out of spring steel.
Arthur,
If you have a correct spring that you won't be needing until spring, would you be willing to loan it to Sean to be used as a pattern for a batch of springs to be made? It seems like giving a spring manufacturer a sample is the best way to get a good, comparable part reproduced. We'll see what kind of quote Sean gets from Axcess Spring and if it is attractive enough, perhaps the three of us could work together to get a batch made. Your role will be to supply the sample. :-)
I'd like to have a spare or two and I'll bet others would as well. Please PM me if interested. And Sean, please PM also if you are interested in some help to get this project off the ground.
Thanks,
Chuck
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anyone willing to part with a spring for a while so we can get some made?
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I would be happy to loan the original spring however It is still in the car. I have the car in storage at my Summer place in the North Woods of Wisconsin and currently in Iowa for a few months before heading to Florida for the Winter. I added an external clutch return spring last year when my clutch was not releasing. I suspect that it is broke and I ordered what I thought to be a replacement, eBay. However the replacement torsional spring ends look way different than pictures I recently seen. It has one long end and a short one and may not be heavy enough spring wire, Not sure as I have not attempted to get the old one out. Not sure what kind of a job it would be?
I wish I could be of more help because I would be interested in one made to specifications.
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Anyone know what the time frame would be if we had a batch made ?
I just finished putting my bell housing together but if I knew I could get mine back in a reasonable amount of time ( a couple months or so ) we could use mine .
I would buy one also , I,d like to have a spare .
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Thanks guys. John, let's see what info Sean gets from Lee and Axcess and then you can make a decision on whether the timing will work for you or not. Sure appreciate your willingness to participate!
Chuck
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Before installing the torsion spring in my bellhousing, I did a lot of measuring and force testing. I didn't find any stock springs that were super close in design, but I'm sure some would work. Attached is a drawing done online at the Acxess Spring site that is as close as I can come to duplicating the original design, of course minus the hook and eye on the ends of the legs. Pictures of the spring are also attached. For those interested in the paint markings, it appears to have dark green paint on it. Might be Verde Green, for all I know. :-)
Cheers!
Chuck
This looks very similar to a spring that is on the rear brake caliper for a 97 Park Avenue.
Loren
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That does look similar Loren. But I question if the ID is big enough for the shaft in our bellhousings.......
Chuck
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Chuck ,
pm sent
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Anyone know what the time frame would be if we had a batch made ?
I just finished putting my bell housing together but if I knew I could get mine back in a reasonable amount of time ( a couple months or so ) we could use mine .
I would buy one also , I,d like to have a spare .
Lee spring quoted me 5 weeks. I too have my bell housing ready (minus this spring). Wish I could find my broken one.
I haven't heard back from Axcess Spring yet. I'll try and follow up with them today.
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Lee spring quoted me 5 weeks. I too have my bell housing ready (minus this spring). Wish I could find my broken one.
I haven't heard back from Axcess Spring yet. I'll try and follow up with them today.
[/quote]
Sean ,
let me know when you find out and I will ship my spring to where ever it needs to go .
5 weeks isn,t bad at all .
Do you have a count on how many people want one ?
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Thanks for jumping in John! We'll take a headcount after we get the final numbers from Sean on pricing and what minimum volumes will be required. I know I'm in for one or two for sure.
Cheers!
Chuck
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Ok, Axcess spring isn't responding to my emails so I guess we'll go with Lee Spring. I received a quote of $81.66 ea. on and order of 20 springs. This is what I'll order. How about $90 ea. shipped?
Everyone who want's one email me your name and address and I'll put you down. sean@paintworksunlimited.com.
Someone want to send me one and I'll get it off to them so we can get these suckers coming?
Paintworks Unlimited
99 Oak Street
Dover, NH 03820
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Thanks Sean. Too bad Axcess won't respond. Oh well......
I'm in for two. Emailing details to you now.
Chuck
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Sorry I got in so late tonight , just had 8 new garage doors put in .
Sean , Chuck , are we ready on the spring then ?
I can pull it out tomorrow morning and get it shipped out right away .
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Thanks John. Yes, send it to Sean at his address above.
Glad to get this off the ground!
Chuck
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PS, eight garage doors? Sounds like you're making room for more 65 GS restorations!
Cheers!
Chuck
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Thanks John. Yes, send it to Sean at his address above.
Glad to get this off the ground!
Chuck
Spring is on it,s way .
Sean , I will be including 90.00 for payment for 1 of the repo springs plus would like my original back also .
Thank you Sean and Chuck for getting this done . :thumbsup:
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All
I'm not personally in need of one of these springs but would the small V8-V6 3 or 4 speed cars need the same spring?
If so it could expand the interest in demand.
I'm glad to see we continue to expand solutions to non available parts.
For me, our cars are a lot more enjoyable when they can look and run at their potential.
Milton
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PS, eight garage doors? Sounds like you're making room for more 65 GS restorations!
Cheers!
Chuck
Chuck ,
Buick/Speedshop/Mancave is getting close being 3/4 of the way done . In floor heat gets hooked up tuesday . :sunny:
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Thanks John. Yes, send it to Sean at his address above.
Glad to get this off the ground!
Chuck
Spring is on it,s way .
Sean , I will be including 90.00 for payment for 1 of the repo springs plus would like my original back also .
Thank you Sean and Chuck for getting this done . :thumbsup:
Awesome. I'll put it with the paperwork and get it right out to them. I put you down for one.
Thanks
Sean
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All
I'm not personally in need of one of these springs but would the small V8-V6 3 or 4 speed cars need the same spring?
If so it could expand the interest in demand.
I'm glad to see we continue to expand solutions to non available parts.
For me, our cars are a lot more enjoyable when they can look and run at their potential.
Milton
Milton ,
I,m not familiar enough with these cars to know if the smaller engines use the same clutch return spring or not . BUT it,s funny you should mention that because I have another spring that came with another bell housing I bought except it is quite a bit smaller diameter wire .
I don,t know if someone found a similar spring or another style car used the same spring but it,s exactly the same configuration .
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Sean , just checking in .
Did the spring make it there ok ?
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Sean , just checking in .
Did the spring make it there ok ?
I received the spring. Got the address from Lee Spring and it's going out to them today!
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Just wondering if there is any update on the clutch return springs yet ?
I,m not in a hurry or anything just kind of wondering how the progress is coming along .
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Lee Spring said they should be ready by 1/13/17.
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Good news. Thanks for the update Sean!
If possible, please have Lee Spring confirm the design that they are making these to. It would be interesting to have their design from review of John's original spring for the archives. Hopefully, they'll send a print with dimensions, specifications and part number for future reference.
Chuck
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Here it is.
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Sean , Chuck , thanks guys for the update .
Appreciate the fast response . Another part for our cars reproduced :thumbsup:
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Thanks Sean. Just what I'd hoped for.
Chuck
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Springs have arrived!!!!! If you ordered one, they are going out in tomorrows mail. Anyone else need one??? Going to list them on some other boards as well.
Sean
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Sean,
I'll take 2.
Let me know if I can PayPal and the amount.
Thanks!
Mark
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Sean,
I'll take 2.
Let me know if I can PayPal and the amount.
Thanks!
Mark
Sure Mark.
Use: sean@paintworksunlimited.com
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I will take one, will send pay pal if you let me know how much.
Thanks
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Sean , They look great .
Many thanks to you and Chuck for getting this done . AWESOME :rocker:
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Anyone know the Group and Part Number for this spring?
Thanks!
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Hey Dan,
According to the Assembly Manual, it's in Group 7 (Transmission Clutch and Controls) and is part number 1376061. Not from a parts book; I don't have one.
I have a couple here if you need to see an example.
Chuck
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Thanks, Chuck!
Group 0.844 # 1359979 sup --> 1376061
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I need 2
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