65GS.com - Buick Gran Sport Enthusiasts!
Projects & Restorations => Projects & Restorations => Topic started by: cwmcobra on July 04, 2015, 02:23:23 PM
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As I noted in my Ginky Weeds Restoration thread, I'd like to include air conditioning in my non-AC 4-speed convertible restoration. Seeing that there are no aftermarket solutions that are "plug and play", it seems my best bet is to find a parts car with factory AC and swap it to my car. I think I've just found the car I need, but want to check in with you guys before I proceed. The parts car is a 65 Skylark with a 300 V8 and factory AC. It appears all of the AC system is there, including everything in the dash and under the hood. Any reason this wouldn't directly swap into my GS? I expect the compressor would have to be rebuilt or a reman installed and that some of the tubing/piping might need to be freshened. And I assume there is a different compressor mounting bracket on the 401 vs. the 300, correct? Are those available? Anything else I would need and should know before I proceed with purchase of the parts car?
Thanks and Happy Fourth to all. God Bless America!
Cheers!
Chuck
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Here's what I'd have to work with in the parts car; more in another post or two.
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More:
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The last couple of pictures.
What other parts would I need to change? Pulleys? Fuel filter? Others?
Thanks!
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You will need the compressor mounting brackets for a big block and also the correct pulleys. The P/S pulley has AC stamped on the face of it.
The crank pulley is a triple as is the water pump pulley.
You have the correct POA valve on the parts car. Early '65 Skylarks had a suction throttle valve same as the '64. That early system had more vacuum lines and a different control on the dash.
Also the main lines off the compressor are 65/66 GS specific , but everything else is the same. If you can get the whole parts car it will help for locating the holes you need to cut in the dash and the firewall.
Almost forgot, the mounting brackets on the condenser are different set back between a Skylark and a GS.
I've done a couple of conversions to factory like you are talking about doing.
Good luck,
Loren
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Thanks Loren. Before I pull the trigger on another long drive for a car, I'd like to be confident that the other parts I will need are available. Do you know if the pulleys, brackets, etc. are available to buy? I can post in the WTB thread here, but are there other sources you recommend? Ebay? Repops?
I also notice that the compressor on the parts car has a single groove pulley. I've seen AC systems on other GS cars that have a double pulley setup. Perhaps I'll need a new compressor anyway, but is there any chance of this one working?
Thanks as always!
Chuck
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Chuck,
Good catch, yes you need a double pulley compressor. The pulleys for water pump, crank and P/S would be on big cars like Electra and Riviera.
As for the compressor, next one I do I'm just going to go new and go 134A. Will need to have the POA valve rebuilt and adjusted for 134A also.
I'll have to look in my notes for suppliers, get back on that.
Oh, there are like 3 different brackets for the rear of the compressor. Depends upon intake and / or valve cover options.
Loren
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Chuck,
Good catch, yes you need a double pulley compressor. The pulleys for water pump, crank and P/S would be on big cars like Electra and Riviera.
As for the compressor, next one I do I'm just going to go new and go 134A. Will need to have the POA valve rebuilt and adjusted for 134A also.
I'll have to look in my notes for suppliers, get back on that.
Oh, there are like 3 different brackets for the rear of the compressor. Depends upon intake and / or valve cover options.
Loren
Well, that ups the complexity a bit, but again the key will be the availability of parts. My intake/valve cover combo is factory 2x4 intake with cast, finned BUICK valve covers. Obviously not the most common combination......
Chuck
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Dear Chuck, Loren, and mid-60s Buick fans,
As I noted in my Ginky Weeds Restoration thread, I'd like to include air conditioning in my non-AC 4-speed convertible restoration. Seeing that there are no aftermarket solutions that are "plug and play", it seems my best bet is to find a parts car with factory AC and swap it to my car.
Sounds like you are committed on your path, but just for the record. You can get a reasonably clean and nice factory dash look using the Vintage Air kit for the 1964-67 GTO. The modifications needed are:
- You need to come up with your own bracket for the compressor. The easiest way to do that is to modify the Sanden compressor bracket that comes with the Vintage Air kit so that you can weld it to a Buick bracket. Still it is precision work because the pulleys need to line up.
- You need to decide how to route the heater and refrigerant cables between the engine bay and under the dash. This can be done very neatly by reusing the old heater housing.
- You need do decide how to route the A/C ducts. I went with a hybrid using the factory vents for the outside and a custom arrangement for the inner vents. See below.
- You need to make room in the engine bay for the Vintage A/C parts. The condenser fits where the factory condenser was, but there are some additional hoses and valves. It definitely won't look stock but it can be done very cleanly.
- You need to make room for the Vintage Air evaporator housing which take more room on the passenger side. You'll need a custom glove box liner since the Vintage Air kit is for a GTO. I have a template if interested.
- You'll need to modify a Buick A/C dash controller to work with the Vintage Air electronic cable emulators. This is a bit tricky but I also have instructions.
Here is how the dash on my trusty wagon turned out:
(http://canebas.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Dashboard-before-and-after/i-LWzhV9P/0/L/IMG_3205-L.jpg) (http://canebas.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Dashboard-before-and-after/i-LWzhV9P/A)
Here is a close-up of the dual round vents instead of the factory rectangular vent:
(http://canebas.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Dashboard-before-and-after/i-CHttVQp/0/L/IMG_3206-L.jpg) (http://canebas.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Dashboard-before-and-after/i-CHttVQp/A)
It also shows the Buick factory A/C control converted to control the Vintage Air system. Here is quick view of my trusty wagon's engine bay:
(http://canebas.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Biquettes-old-Edelbrock-air/i-VJkzLhG/0/L/Biquette%27s%20air%20cleaner-L.jpg) (http://canebas.smugmug.com/Biquette/Drive-Train-makeover/Biquettes-old-Edelbrock-air/i-VJkzLhG/A)
The hoses and valve just above the air cleaner control the coolant flow into the Vintage Air heater core. The Sanden compressor is to the far left.
Definitely no factory looking installation in the engine bay, but if you want the functionality of A/C and can live with those changes, it might be less of a battle than back-fitting all the original factory parts.
Probably not for Chuck at this point, but perhaps simply general interest as . . . .
(http://www.canebas.org/WeatherCat/Forum_support_documents/Custom_emoticons/sunny_happy.png) . . .In summertime, a classic car enthusiast often turns to thoughts of . . . . . A/C! (http://www.canebas.org/WeatherCat/Forum_support_documents/Custom_emoticons/sweaty.gif)
Cheers, Edouard
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Thanks Eduardo. I'll take another look at the Vintage Air system, but I'm not sure which would be more difficult at this point :icon_scratch:
Cheers!
Chuck
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Nice looking install Edouard.
I do enjoy seeing pictures of your wagon, some nice craftsmanship!
Loren
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Chuck,
Roger Sears has one of the nicest and cleanest installs of AC I have seen. Uses a Sanden compressor on the factory AC bracket but does not use a bracket over the valve cover. Guess is that the smaller compressor does need need the support. Has the compressor valves pointing down and then runs the hoses behind the wheel well.
Unfortunately Roger is not on the internet grid. Believe he would be happy to let you know what parts he used if you gave him a call. If interested PM me and will provide his phone number.
Whichever way you go best of luck with the project.
Dan
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Dear Chuck, Loren, Dan, and mid-60s fans of Buicks with A/C
I'll take another look at the Vintage Air system, but I'm not sure which would be more difficult at this point :icon_scratch:
Not sure either, but Roger's car offers you another option to consider - underdash vents. I bought the Vintage Air kit with the underdash kit installation kit, but sadly, the Vintage Air housing were just plain cheap. There is plenty of place under the dash in these cars, so it is something to think about if you can fashion something you would be proud of. Thanks to the hot-rod crowd there are many many different styles of vents. I used some Old Air Products for the center vents in my wagon. If you cruise some of the vintage car A/C suppliers, you might find an arrangement of underdash vents that still look really good and avoids some difficult cutting of your car's dash.
I forgot to mention in my list the matter of cutting the holes for the original factory outer vents. I have some very carefully made templates for a 1965 A-body, but even with these it is a miserable job requiring a real eye for detail. I was off by 1/4" on the passenger side and the error had to be repaired by welding.
There is one other reason to consider going Vintage Air. It is a more modern system so it uses less power and is easier to control. I never got the chance to really test it, but you should be able to set it at your comfort level and never adjust it again.
I do enjoy seeing pictures of your wagon, some nice craftsmanship!
Glad you like it. Since I'm also a model railroader, I have an eye for detail!
Roger Sears has one of the nicest and cleanest installs of AC I have seen.
. . . .
Thanks for sharing these pictures. I'm amazing at how many different ways people can set up their air conditioning and still get a very nice clean look. I'm very pleased at how my trusty wagon turned out but honestly it was "goin' about it da' hard way!"
Cheers, Edouard
P.S. If you consider an aftermakret A/C package check out all 3 suppliers of kits for GM A-body cars. Vintage Air has some competition and I wonder if those other products might even be better.
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Chuck,
I have the AC compressor/Alternator bracket you need for your 401. I think I also have a double pulley for the compressor. It can be swapped out fairly easy. As for the hoses, you will have to find some original ones from a 65 GS, or have Classic Auto Air in Floriday re-make the skylark ones to fit a GS engine.
Those are the easy parts though I am afraid. Here is where it gets complicated. When you pull the fender off your GS and remove heater blower box that is under the hood/behind the fender, then compare the firewall from your car to the factory AC car, you will find there is a firewall extension under the fender that has to be cut off the AC car and welded to the bottom of the hole you cut in the firewally for the Evaporator box.
Next, pull the kick panel off on the passenger side interior. If you look at your non-AC GS, it has a kick panel vent in a large hole in the metal. Look in the same area on the AC car--it has a hole in the metal for the cold air to flow from the evap box to the ducting under the dash. This hole is a different shape and is about 4-5" higher on the metal kick panel wall than the hole in the non-AC car. To get past this, you will have to trace out the correct hole for the AC car onto some cardboard and transfer it to the Non-AC car. Once you cut out what you can, you will have to make a piece and weld into the lower portion and fill in the bottom 4" or so of the hole that was there for the non-AC kick panel vent since it was lower on the panel than the hole you just made for the AC.
Lastly, you have to cut the holes in the dash for the side vents, but that is fairly straightforward--just take your time making a pattern off the AC parts car and transfer it carefully onto your dash and tripple check it before you cut.
The other holes in the firewall you have to cut are pretty straightforward and will be hidden by all the AC boxes on the firewall under the hood once it is all assembled into the car.
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Thanks again guys. A wealth of information!
Brian, your details of "the rest of the story" is the kind of info that will really help guide me on whether I want to undertake the factory AC project or not. I'd say probably not as this level of complexity of rework is probably beyond my tolerance (and possibly abilities :sad1:). Not to mention the escalating costs when factoring in the cost of the parts car as well as all the other components that need to be changed.
Eduardo, thanks for all the info on the aftermarket solutions. I talked with Dan yesterday and he steered me to look at Classic Auto Air (as did Brian) for hose reworks, POA valve adjustment, etc. So, before I make a final decision, I will look seriously at the 3-4 AM companies and their products. I plan to talk with Loren as well, who has been through a couple of the factory AC conversions, for another opinion.
Stay tuned......I need to get my car to the painter later this month, so I will have to make this decision sooner rather than later!
Chuck
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Chuck lots of good ideas here, have you given any thought to an under dash unit. They were used extensively in the 60s, this would require less cutting and alteration. I think all you would need in addition to the under dash unit would be the condenser, dryer and compressor.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/vta-672001vhy?seid=srese1&gclid=COfw-tLhx8YCFQyoaQodI4gKVg (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/vta-672001vhy?seid=srese1&gclid=COfw-tLhx8YCFQyoaQodI4gKVg)
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I may have to try one of those, looks like a good setup. I do have an Old Auto Air system in our 57 Dodge and it works great, very similar to Vintage Air system.
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Dear Rollaround, Jim, and mid-60s Buick "cool-cats" . . . . . :glasses9:
Chuck lots of good ideas here, have you given any thought to an under dash unit. They were used extensively in the 60s, this would require less cutting and alteration. I think all you would need in addition to the under dash unit would be the condenser, dryer and compressor.
[url]http://www.summitracing.com/parts/vta-672001vhy?seid=srese1&gclid=COfw-tLhx8YCFQyoaQodI4gKVg[/url] ([url]http://www.summitracing.com/parts/vta-672001vhy?seid=srese1&gclid=COfw-tLhx8YCFQyoaQodI4gKVg[/url])
Actually what you have marked there is a product that is sold by Vintage air and is a reproduction of a underdash air conditioner of the 1960s. As such, you can match it up with other Vintage Air components to get a complete system.
I also thought about this, but I needed the under dash real-estate for my gauge cluster. If you can park your gauges somewhere else, it is a good plan and does look very authentic.
Cheers, Edouard
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Chuck,
The conversion is not as bad as I made it sound. The biggest thing is having access to a mig welder and a jig saw to do the changeover. Since you are looking at getting a whole parts car, you will have everything you need to do the conversion, so I recommend going that way. You will be happier with the result when you are done.
I dug out the 401 AC/alt bracket I have tonight to make sure I knew where it was. Will look and see if I have the double pulley setup you need for the compressor.