65GS.com - Buick Gran Sport Enthusiasts!
General Discussion => Buick Interchange => Topic started by: WkillGS on October 11, 2008, 11:10:51 PM
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Does anyone have specs for the 65 GS coil springs?
I have the specs for the 66 GS from the assembly manual:
Front:
0.650" wire dia
16.2" to 16.6" free length
380 lbs/inch rate
Moog #6033 are a near perfect match!
Rear:
0.540" wire dia
14.62" free length
115 lbs/inch rate
Moog 5237 is on the low end, 5231 is higher, 6197 is a HD version, and 5235 are for the Special wagon... which I put on my 66 Special, but had to trim to lower the ride height.
I'm curious what the 65 GS specs were.
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Walt,
I'll see if I can find something on that. I bought my springs from the GSCA. They are going to make the car sit way too high, so they are all going to have to come out.
With the engine/trans in the car, I still have 3 1/2" of daylight between the top of the tire and the wheel opening.
Mark
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Walt,
I couldn't scrounge up any specs. I did find part numbers for 65 GS, and only one number is listed for all three body styles.
Front:
391100 - right front
391101 - left front
9777431 - rear/both
Mark
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Thanks Mark!
These ARE listed in the spring chart of my 66 Assembly Manual. It doesn't list applications tho.
For the Fronts:
pn 391100-1
Wire Dia: 0.6691" (theoritical. actual dia may vary)
Free Length: 15.57"(R), 15.81"(L)
Load Height= 11.4"
Load Weight= 1725- 1875 lbs
Rate: 420 lbs/inch
Moog lists a 0.672" wire diameter spring:
#6188 has a free length of 15.4"
#6194 has a free length of 16.43"
And a 0.690" wire diameter spring:
#6322 has a free length of 16.194"
Listed spring rate varies with installed height and load weight.
For the Rear, the 9777431 was also used in the 66 GS convertible:
Wire Dia: 0.540"
Free length: 15"
Load height:8.52"
Load Weight: 695- 745 lbs
Rate: 115 lbs/inch
Moog lists 3 springs with a 0.531" wire dia:
#5237 free length= 14.861"
#6201 free length= 15.441"
#5231 free length= 15.769"
And one with a 0.565" wire dia:
#6197 free length= 14.83"
I think it's interesting that Buick used such a stiff front spring in the 65 GS. For the 66 GS, they decreased the wire dia and rate slightly. Replacement springs for other musclecars are much softer than what Buick used!
For my '66 GS, I'm using #6033 in the front, and #6197 in the rear. I hope to have a ride report in the coming months!
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Walt,
Many thanks for the specs! I'm thinking about the 6188 for the front and 6201 for the rear.
They look closest to "stock", but the rates could be different. Moog tends to be more of a heavy duty replacement.
Mark
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Call ESPO Springs in PA. They have all the info you need. Also, I have a set of new 65 GS stock springs from them that I need to sell. $50
just email me if interested
pmg455@msn.com
Thanks
Pat
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Pat, I have purchased springs from ESPO, and found them to be very helpful. Prices were competitive as well.
However, they didn't have specs for my 66 GS, and tried to sell me standard Skylark springs.
Is there a part number on the springs you got from ESPO?
Since we now have GM specs for the original springs, ESPO should be able to match the originals to the present offerings.
P.S., The 65 GS Service manual (page 80) also shows the spring rates as being 420 lbs/in rear, and 115 lbs/in front.....that confirms the pn and Assembly manual info!
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Walt
The 66 spring I used is a C-CS-5244. The original 65 spring I used was a CS-5246.
The 5246 is 298 lb/in
The 65 spring with A/C is a 315 lb/in spring and would lift a given car 3/4" higher than the 5246.
The 65 HD spring is also 315 lb/in, but since it is longer, it would lift a given car 1" higher than the 5246
The 66 GS spring w/o A/C is the CS-5244, and I believe is also the same part number as a 65 with A/C plus HD. This is also a 315 lb/in spring but is even longer, thus lifts car 1.5" higher than the 5246.
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Good morning all! I originally posted a similar thread on the V8Buick board but Walt showed me over here, so here's my reply:
How do the MOOG 5235s for the Special Wagon compare to the MOOG 6197 HD springs for the GS / convertible. Are they thicker than 0.0565" wire? Do they ride better or are they too hard?
I don't want the Skylark to ride too soft, and I want it to ride low - about 3 inches lower than stock, especially as I'm planning on putting in a big rear bar that attaches to the frame and not the lower control arms (see my other post yesterday).
Interesting that I can get the springs from RockAuto since I was planning on getting the rear drums from there as well - $30 each!!
regards, Nick :)
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I ordered and installed the C-CS-656 front springs from ESPO.
Now, what options are there for the rears? The GSCA springs have to go.
Mark
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Mark, the 6197's installed on the rear of my 66 produce a height between 12 and 12.5 inches between the wheel center and edge of the wheelwell lip.
I'd say it's a bit higher than stock.
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Walt,
Yes, it looks a bit higher than stock. But the tires and 15" (what they appear to be) rims you've used fill that space better than the 14" rims and skinny hoops I'm using! I'm looking for something close to stock.
The front springs from ESPO are standard GS with AC.
Great looking 66 by the way Walt!
Mark
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Thanks Mark. Yes, they are 255/60-15's in the rear.
My old Moog catalog lists the 5231 and 5237 for the 65-66 Skylarks. Other options listed above are the closest fit from their spec charts.
Base your decision on desired ride height. Fortunately, rear ride height is relatively easy to adjust by cutting springs, or shimming up the mounting pad.
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ESPO only makes one rear spring for the GS. I should have them in hand Monday or Tuesday.
l'll need to get them powdercoated, then it's back on four wheels.
l'll get some pics up then of the ride height.
Mark
(thought I'd try a post to the forum from a smart phone)
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Mark,
So it is Espo C-CS-656 for the fronts. Do you know the part number for the rears? It's time for me to order up. I checked everything underneath and it all seems tight. Springs are the last thing left.
Rob
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Hi Rob,
I'll let you know tomorrow or Wednesday. I'm picking up the rear springs from the powder coater.
He has the box with the packing slip. Did you check the front stabilizer bar bushings, mounts & links?
Mark
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So I finally got around to trying to install these new springs from espo. The rears were a full coil to short. I then took the car to a buddy's garage to have him install the fronts and they were about two inches shorter than the orginals. So the old ones went back in. Either espo is not consistent with their products or these part numbers arent correct. The fronts that were too short were C-CS-656. Anybody have better luck with different products?
Rob K
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Rob, were the new springs a larger diameter wire? They will be shorter out of the car, but may compress to a similar height when installed.
The rears go in & out easy enough....did you try installing them?
The '66 GS front springs go in & out fairly easy. I barely had to compress them to install them. The stiffer (and possibly shorter) 65 GS springs should be a bit easier to install.
Buick did spec a lower ride height for the GS than the Skylarks.
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Rob,
The ESPO springs I ordered worked perfectly. I'd have to scrounge the part numbers, but ride height, etc. looks great so far.
I'm curious if you put them in and got the car on the ground. Just measuring the free spring height won't tell you everything.
Mark
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I pulled the rears myself with a friend but the fronts were a bit intimidating so I brought them to the garage of another guy i know. At first I figured only the rears were the wrong size since the new fronts had 11 coils like the old ones (I counted the fronts) The old ones (rear) were much taller than than the new ones ( a full coil of spring) so I put the old one back in.
I am a bit confused by Walt's message. The gauge of wire looked about the same to me. Are you saying that the new ones would compact less than the old ones and therefore perfrom the same as the old ones? IF that is the case maybe I do have the right ones.
mark - were your old ones and new ones the same height out of the car?
as always, thanks Rob
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Rob,
Before shipping anything back, I'd go through the exercise of getting them in the car. The wire diameter might be close,
but the steel spec can be different, ie; stiffer, looser, etc.
The old ones from my car hit the trash bin in 1996. I should have saved them, but someone had already changed the rears
to a cargo-type overload spring, so I didn't have original rears. The fronts were pretty worn out, but I should have saved one.
I bought front & back springs from the GSCA in 1996, and they were in the car until last year. I don't know what they sent me,
but the car sat about 5 inches higher than stock, even with the engine in. Right now, with the ESPO springs in, it looks good -
a little higher in the back actually than what I would like, but I still need to get to get some glass, interior, etc. in the car.
Pat Guida put ESPO springs in his 4 speed convert as well, and was very happy with them.
Mark
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That's encouraging. My only worry is that they somehow sent me the wrong ones. The rears were not that tough, but putting the fronts in, having them, be wrong, and taking them back out and putting my old ones back in is a rough way to spend an afternoon.
Rob
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Rob, here's an example of thin wire vs thick wire and free length:
A Moog #5246 spring for a plain Skylark.... Wire dia is 0.630" and the free length 17.3 ". Rate is 314 lbs/inch. (thin and tall)
For a '66 GS (different than '65 GS), a Moog #6033 spring is a perfect match for the originals. Wire diameter is a thicker 0.660" and the free length is 16.4 ". Rate is 369 lbs/inch. (thick and short)
Now, and this is overly simplifying it (and not entirely accurate), add 1978 lbs to the #5246 spring and it compresses from 17.3 " to 11" (which is the installed height when in the car).
Apply the same 1978 lbs to the thicker, shorter, #6033 spring, and it also compresses to about 11".
.....the taller weaker spring compresses 6.3 inches, while the shorter thicker spring only compresses 5.4"......
The correct spring for a '65 GS is supposedly stiffer than the 66 version, so it's likely to be a bit shorter and a thicker wire.
Is your springs height in this range?
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I'll measure it tonight. Thanks Walt.
With the rears the difference was so dramatic it did not occur to me that it could relate to the rate.
I'll keep working on it.
Rob