65GS.com - Buick Gran Sport Enthusiasts!
Drivetrain => The Nailhead => Topic started by: Chris on January 14, 2009, 10:12:18 PM
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Guys, I've heard for a while that there is a fellow out there selling roller rockers for the 401. Has anyone here used them and if so are they worth the money as far as performance?
I've always heard that in order for roller rockers to really pay off, you had to have a roller rods, special cam and lifters.
I'm assuming that the roller rockers are the only thing out there for the nailhead?
Chris
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Chris,
Tom Telesco is making the roller rockers. I plan to have a set on my car - someday.
"roller rods"? - you got me on that one!
You don't need a special cam or lifters, but you do need to know the cam specs and the rocker arm ratio (I don't know what Tom's are) so you don't have the valves hitting the pistons.
Especially with the domes the nailhead configuration uses.
Mark
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I thought I seen a set of rods one time that had the rollers built into them as an alternative to roller lifters and cam.
Might have been a speciality or concept piece or I'm probably just not remembering the part correctly.
I do have some adjustable push rods I bought last year, do you know if it's a good idea to use these with the roller rockers? I was told the adjustable rods can "tighten" up the valves and make the engine more responsive etc. Opinions?
Chris
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adjustable push rods ..... do you know if it's a good idea to use these with the roller rockers?
Chris
Chris the roller rockers are adjustable, so there is no need for adjustable pushrods too. Adjustable pushrods add weight, so avoid them for high RPM applications.
Isky did make a 'Rev kit' that used extra springs right on top of the (roller?) lifters. The whole she-bang installed inside the lifter galley area.
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I see Tom Telesco a few times a year at the Buick gatherings around here, so I speak to him often.
He and a (now deceased) friend of his started development on the roller rockers nearly 10 years ago. At one point TA Performance got involved with the project. Things weren't progressing, so Tom T and TA eventually brought two different versions to market.
Toms roller rockers use the stock shafts, stands, spring spacers, and even stock pushrods. They are made to work with all stock valve covers, even the cast alum VC.
Cost in in the $900 range.
The TA Performance version uses needle bearings on the rockers. They are sold as a complete setup with rocker shafts, stands and alum tube spacers (instead of springs). they are designed to be oiled thru the pushrods, so different lifters and pushrods need to be used. They will not fit under the stock cast alum valve covers, and one source told me they may interfere with the stock steel vc's as well.
Cost is higher, over $1k for the rockers, required lifters/pushrods add to that.
I installed a set of Toms rockers on my recent build, but not have not fired it up yet.
I did measure some profiles of a few cams using a dial indicator and degree wheel, and then plot the data on graph paper.
In general, the extra ratio of the rockers will add about 0.050" lift to any cam. They will not change the opening/closing 'seat' times of the cam, so drivability will not be decreased. They will add a bit of valve lift at low low lift.....I've found they will decrease valve-piston clearance about 0.020", which shouldn't be a problem unless you have weak valve springs or a lot of slack in the timing chain.
Valve-piston clearance is tightest during valve overlap....when the exhaust is closing, and the intake is opening. Basically from 10* BTDC to 10* ATDC.
What the extra ratio of the rockers WILL do is increase the overall amount of lift of any cam profile and increase the overall EFFECTIVE duration of the cam lobe, or increase the 'area under the curve' so to speak. On paper it looks pretty impressive!
In effect, adding the roller rockers to a stock cam will give you the performance of a mild performance cam. Adding rollers to a performance cam will turn it into a monster cam but without hurting the drivability!
Are they worth the cost? well, for a 10-40(?) hp increase they are expensive. But as all of you know, it's hard to get extra hp out of a Nail. For a top-performing Nail, I'd say they are a 'must-do'.
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Awesome reply Walt (as usual) ;)
This is exactly what I was looking for.
I suppose this weekend I need to start getting some stuff on Ebay and start saving my lunch money for a new cam and Telesco roller rockers.
Thanks again!
Chris
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Lunch money ? You mean you get lunch money? lol
Loren
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Loren,
I'm the boss in our family and I wear the pants!
My wife just tells me when to put them on and which pair to wear.
In all seriousness, I have a savings account set up separate from our household account that is knicknamed the "Skylark / GS" fund. We have an agreement that I only buy my car stuff from that account and all the money from anything I sell goes in there.
The funny thing is that when I travel for work (1 - 2 times a week) all my travel reimbursement money goes to the Skylark GS account and yes.... this includes the lunch money they refund to me. ;D
I really wanted Brian's stuff.. but didn't have enough in the Skylark GS account. I had to ask my wife for money from our household savings and she shut me down.
If Brian still has his stuff once I get enough money in the account, I'll try to buy it, but I didn't want to hog the opportunity from anyone else and at that price.. I have a feeling it'll go pretty quick.
I think I need to start planning for more expensive lunches and not eating them! 8)
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There is more info than most could ever need over at: V8Buick.com Click on search & type in "Tom's Roller Rockers".
Tom Telesco
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WOW! Welcome Tom!
I've been following your rockers on the V8 Board for some time and everything I've heard about them is great.
I want a pair of them really bad (actually have a need for 3 sets) however like everyone else, right now cash is tight.
Do you have a layaway plan? Ok.. just kidding, but in all seriousness, at least one set is in the works for my convertible in the very near future.
Hope to you see you around Tom... your Nailhead experience would really be appreciated around here.
Thanks,
Chris
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Chris,
I haven't been following ths thread .
Sorry to give you the bad news , but I will be picking up the GS kit the end of March/first of April.
I lied , I get lunch money , I just carry my lunch.lol
Loren
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Loren,
The GS Kit? What all comes in that?
From what I've read these rockers are what legends and songs are wrote about. ;D
I'm a big boy (6' 2" 300 lbs) but I'm seriously considering skipping lunch and supper to get a set of these on my vert. (skipping would probably do me some good in more than one way!).
Chris
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Chris,
Short of the body sheet metal, rear bumper, dash pad and glass. Everything else. Once I get it back to Nebraska, I'll be able to figure out what all I will need to get a couple of projects done. Then, most likely start cleaning the storage area out. What to get rid of will be a chore.
With the move to Nebraska less then 3 years ago, I'm still locating boxes of parts. I filled my enclosed 24' trailer more then once with parts to get it all here.
Loren
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Loren,
Ok.. you lost me there for a minute LOL!
You are talking about Brian's GS deal (and what a deal!)
I thought maybe you was buying a set of these roller rockers and there was a "GS Package" I should know about.
That package would've been one hellva start on the Reynolds Buick... add a Skylark post body and poof!
I'm very glad that you got it and Brian was able to sell it here and it "stays in the family". ;D
Honestly you've put me out of my misery since I was thinking of everything short of selling my dog to get it.
Lima Ford announced early this week that they are laying of 70 people effective immediatly and cutting a shift. They are banking hard on Spring to pull them out of this slump and till then we need to tighten our belts and hold on.
Please post pictures of your new treasure when you get it home.
Chris
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Chris,
Have the post body, needed the GS frame. Wanted the rear end for the other GS hardtop project as the one I had is under a friends' GS back in MN. Also needed the A/C stuff. The rest is a bonus?
Will do the pics.
Loren
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Loren,
You going to pick up all the PW stuff for me? ;)
Back to Tom's roller rockers...
Mark
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There is more info than most could ever need over at: V8Buick.com Click on search & type in "Tom's Roller Rockers".
Tom Telesco
Hi Tom. Maybe you can start your own thread like the one you have on V8. Or maybe just copy and paste the whole damn thing!! I stii haven't had a chance to check it out yet but will soon.
Great seeing you over here.
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Nice to see you here Tom!
I know how much you love to type!....I can most likely answer many of the questions anyone has about Tom's rockers.
If you could sell these complete and ready to bolt-on, I bet you could sell more.
Tom can provide new shafts with the rockers.
I know of one place that has the shaft stands....
Would you be interested in a source for the spacer springs on the rocker shafts? I found a source online, they just sent me a catalog.
www.leespring.com
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To anyone interested. I will do anything, just about, to satisfy everyone's needs. If you just send all the nec. parts to make a complete assembly you will receive a complete assembly ready to bolt-on. I will need 8 stands in good condition. Some wear is OK as "My Rockers" are larger in this area over the stockers. This gives more contact area & even provides "More" oil for better lubrication in this area. Not wanted are "Rebuilt" stands. These are just ground down & made thinner for a "New" surface for the stock rockers. 4ea. of the flat & wavy washers. 4 short & 2 long spacer springs for a total of 22 pieces. Or, you can send your complete old, original assemblies & I will dis-assemble, clean & re-assemble. I will include the cotter pins. LOL. All of this at N.C. I can give to anyone at least a thread to follow in your quest to make YOUR NAILHEAD A BETTER NAILHEAD!!!!!! I basically know where to get ALL the parts & many of them I have or am having made. Flexplates will be coming soon. Now you don't have to search E-Bay any longer for a used flexplate that was dragged behind an engine at the yard or garage & in the pictures doesn't show it as being bent or the pictures only show the good "Teeth". I don't have any extra rocker parts on hand other than used rockers or shafts that others have sent & not wanted back. I have given much free advice as to what I feel are the common mistakes in building our "Nails". Also offer advice to "Improve" what you have or will be building. Walt will have to do some more checking of what I PM'd him about. My main quest is to see that EVERYONE gets out of their "Nail" as much as or more than they can expect or be expected. The performance of these engines are not being held back as some may believe. THEY CAN PERFORM!!!!!!!! I just hope that Edelbrock WILL come out with heads. Hopefully they will also be able to supply the proper head gaskets with the heads. Can't use shim steel on an aluminum head & can't use old technology composite gaskets with the dissimilarity of cast & aluminum. And as Walt has stated, "I would rather a call that type". This has taken me over an hour for this short message.
Tom T.
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Tom,
I'll say it again... Great to have you aboard! All Nailhead guys here.... ;D
I'd asked in the other thread to provide advise on a dependable performance build and it sounds like you have a thread for us. Please post a link to the thread at your convenience?
If you have a list of performance parts, prices or contact information that you'd like to publish here, please feel free to add it, or if you need help, forward it to me and I'll make sure it gets on line. I'll be parts / vendor page eventually and provide a link for businesses like my lenses (www.DamnGoodAutoParts.com) so if you'd like a section for your stuff, just let me know.
I'm sure many Nailhead performance questions will end up here and it'll be great to help those members with a performance craving, get the parts and advice they need.
Thanks again,
Chris
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Rebuilt my 401 replacing every part in the valve train. Ran great for about 500 miles. Just crusing along and gave it a little gas and heard a couple of backfires, broke both intake and exhaust rockers on the number 1 cylinder. HELP! What setup do I need to get so this will not happen again.
Tom
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Were the rockers new after market items ? My engine builder sourced a set of rockers from a west coast parts house. Four of the rocker arms broke in less than 500 miles. Got a replacement set, used GM originals, from Tom Telesco. When we compared the new with the originals it was plain to see that the new ones had definite design flaws.
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I know that the rockers I bought were not GM. I would guess they were something made in China. I just bought a complete NOS set Rockers, shafts, springs and towers from Buick Inc. Hope that solves the problem.
Tom
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Noone should be upset now. I know from others that all what Tom Telesco is making is in super condition and he is one of the best with nailheads. I can only tell for myself that I has bought a set from TA performance and that is super quality with hardened shafts and bearings on the rockers ready to bolt on. I don?t think these will break.
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Hindsight is always 20 / 20 however I agree that it's probably worth the time and money to just bite the bullet and use Tom Telesco's roller rockers the first time.
I know that they are about three times the cost, but it sounds like they are worth every cent and you'll never need another set again. The extra money is worth the piece of mind and the extra performance is just icing on the cake.
I've broke a rocker tip in my coupe and we've yet to ever find the fragments in the engine (hoping the oil filter caught it).
I know that when the time comes (probably next year) I'll be making the investment and giving Tom a call.. ;D
Chris
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Rebuilt my 401 replacing every part in the valve train. Ran great for about 500 miles. Just crusing along and gave it a little gas and heard a couple of backfires, broke both intake and exhaust rockers on the number 1 cylinder. HELP! What setup do I need to get so this will not happen again.
Tom
You do need to check clearances, especially if a non-stock cam was installed. Hi-lift cams may produce insufficient clearance between the valve spring retainer and the top of the valve guide. If the shop replaced valve guides or installed valve seals, there could be less clearance than stock.
There was a guy on V8 recently that broke some rockers....it turns out the inner valve springs were not seated properly in the pocket. When the valve opened, the spring became 'solid' when compressed...and something had to give.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of the roller rockers! TA makes a nice set as well, but they do not fit under the stock aluminum valve covers.
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Correct that other valve covers are needed, but I do think that the alu ones they have with Nailhead printet on is nice, but of course yes it is another $200 to spend.