65GS.com - Buick Gran Sport Enthusiasts!
General Discussion => GS Questions => Topic started by: WkillGS on April 06, 2013, 09:45:21 AM
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I noticed the 'S' on the cowl tag of several 65 GS's built in Baltimore.
Then I saw that 'S' = GS option on this build sheet fragment. (Thanks to Al for pic)
Does this hold true on all the GS's you guys have?
Any exceptions? .... has it ever been on a Skylark or Special?
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Walt,
We have found it to be a common thread on cowl tags of Gran Sports.
Another code that has question is "P".
Loren
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Walt and Loren,
Flint built 1965 GSs and Kansas City built 1965 GSs have the "S" code in the fourth group of codes. Baltimore built 1965 GSs just have the "S" code only as shown in the photo. However, Fremont built 1965 GSs do not have the same code display system, therefore will not have the "S" code on the trim tag. Loren, do you need a refresher course? :hello: Sorry, couldn't resist, Loren, my long time mentor.
John
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I guess my question is whether the 'S' code is a positive ID for the Gran Sport package.
Has it even been seen on a Skylark or Special?
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Yes. No.
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Yes. No.
Thanks Dan! Perfect answer. :hello2:
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John,
No refresher course necessary. Just doing the shuffle.
Walt, now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag, the "S" code is for the Gran Sport.
I think, Jon T was the first to bring this to my attention some many years ago.
There has never been an intention to keep secrets of this or anything else. At the same time it is necessary to be as certain as possible we are correct, before stating something is so.
I had previously always had the understanding that ALL '65 Gran Sports had "LR" engine code.
We have documented "LT" coded engines in some. That fact showed me to be carefull.
Loren
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Walt and everybody else,
Jon T. also brought the "S" code to my attention a number of years ago. Jon is one of the most knowledgeable and respected '65 GS enthusiast that I know. At that time, I had just become the new "Keeper of the Registry" paper records, now referred to as the Archival Registry. This presented an excellent opportunity to pursue the meaning behind all the trim tag codes. However, these Registry entries did not record the VIN or the trim tag information. I then tried to reconnect with those in the Registry to update their entry which would include the VIN and the trim tag codes. I mailed out about 75 letters to the addresses on hand. Many came back as 'undeliverable'. But I did get back about 35 responses with the trim tag information included. The "S" code appeared on all the Flint, Kansas City and Baltimore built GSs, except one. However, I later became aware that that one "GS" was a clone. The owner was already aware that his "GS" was a clone. When Chris Horn set up this website, it was a natural fit to have the '65 GS Registry as a separate section. I feel that it was not my place to transfer the paper Archival Registry records over to the online Registry without the current owner's specific permission, for privacy reasons. I think that about 30 or so have Re-registered their GS to the Website's Registry. The online Registry's newer entries are also consistent regarding the 'S" code appearing on '65 GSs. Is this data pool large enough to make an unequivocal statement?
Last month, Loren and I got together to look through those Archival Registry records to search for a common thread for the "P" and "R"codes. We were looking specifically at the Backup lights, Push button radio, Posi-traction, Clock, Rear speaker and Two speed wiper options. There were too many conflicting examples to verify these options as "P" or "R" codes. Loren currently has the paper Archival Registry to do his investigative research. Loren, anything new to add?
This is an excellent opportunity for everyone on this forum to check to see if their '65 GS has the "S" code and report back any exceptions or consistencies. It's also a great opprotunity to speculate what the "P" and "R" codes may be. Bear in mind that the Fremont built GSs will not have an "S", "P" or "R" code as they used a different coding system on their trim tags. Also to bear in mind, some of these codes are also shared by other GM models and years, but many are not.
John Egel
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Thanks, I don't recall seeing the' S= Gran Sport' ever being mentioned online before.
I recently looked at 3 65's and took a pic of the data plates. One was Fremont built. The two Baltimore cars each had only one accessory code on the Data plate..... 'S'. My vert is the same, 'S' only. It's a stripper with 4 speed, radio, and back-up lights as options. Apparently, Baltimore didn't include much info on the Data Plates. The Kansas plant includes nearly all the codes on the plate, and as you mentioned, Fremont used their own code system, presently undecipherable.
Here's my theory on data plate codes:
The cowl data plate is attached by Fisher body. It would only show the option codes necessary for options that require body modifications.....a posi rear doesn't require body mods, so a code wouldn't be included on the data plate. A radio would only require an antenna hole, which I believe would simply be plugged if a radio wasn't installed....no code.
Options requiring body mods would have a code on the plate.... auto vs manual trans, consoles, air conditioning, and outside trim options would require different body cutouts, welded brackets, or trim holes/studs.
Here's a tough one.... the rear seat speaker option.... it requires a separate wire be installed before the sound deadening mats are laid on the floor, which is done at Fisher body, so a code would be required.
By determining whether an 'option' needs mods that were performed at Fisher body, I believe is a key to determining whether it was included on the data plate.
Here's an interesting read on how a Camaro was built:
http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml#fisher (http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml#fisher)
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Walt,
Your observations and conclusions about certain options needing Body by Fisher codes are right on. The posi-traction would not show up there. Regarding the radio, 2 speed wipers and back up lights, almost all '65 GSs came with those options, however not all have the "P"or "R" codes. My convertible has all those options but neither a "P" or "R" code. We have also found convertibles with those codes, so that eliminates the rear speaker as being one of those codes. Most of the codes are needed for "body piercing" options as you've mention. The search continues.
John
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For the good of the order, my Baltimore built 65 GS HT has the "S" in accessory (4th) row and my Baltimore built 66 GS convertible has an "R" there.
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Some of the conflicts with optoins can be that many options could be factory or dealer installed!
such as back-up lights, radios,rear defog, tilt , pb, ps,two speed washer, these came in kits for the dealer to install!
I saw a 65 skylark convertible in a junk yard once that had the K on the fire wall tag, but never had air on it! it had the factory block off
plates on the fire wall where the cut outs were! sure wish I had photo's of this one!
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Since Dr. Frankenbuick was the only one to respond regarding the "S" code on his '65 GS, does that mean there are no inconsistencies or contradictions? Or does that mean that there really is not that much interest in the 'S" code on Flint, Kansas City and Baltimore built 1965 Skylark Gran Sports? Just curious.
John Egel
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John
Were you looking for a response if we already have our cars in the Registry?
When I registered I indicated as a special note the items installed on the car that didn't come that way originally even if they were available.
Milton
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Milton,
There are some here on the forum that may not have registered their GSs in the Registry. I guess I was looking for folks to pipe in if there was a contradiction that needed further attention. Yes, when registering your GS, in the comments section is where one should mention any changes from original factory options.
John
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My car was built in Baltimore. It has the "S" code on the trim tag. My car is a convertible, has factory air, tilt wheel, power windows, power brakes, AM radio, two speed wipers. Hope this helps.
Keith
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Since Dr. Frankenbuick was the only one to respond regarding the "S" code on his '65 GS, does that mean there are no inconsistencies or contradictions? Or does that mean that there really is not that much interest in the 'S" code on Flint, Kansas City and Baltimore built 1965 Skylark Gran Sports? Just curious.
John Egel
Since I was not sure what direction this discussion would take, I chose to not respond. If it helps, my Flint built car has the S code, while my Fremont built one does not. Does this make the confusion any clearer?? :icon_biggrin:
I cannot afford to buy cars from Kansas City and Baltimore at this time to check their codes. :BangHead: :occasion14:
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Are there any Skylark or Special owners that could check their trim tags for a "S" code? Pretty confident that they won't find the "S" code. It looks like there are no exceptions thus far, to the "S" code being found only on '65 GS built in the Fremont, KC and Flint plants. 'Nuff said.
Tom, what we can't afford, we can dream about.
John
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My first car that sat next to the convertible that gs sizzler was talking about in the junk yard had the code as follows E-2lPR-3H-4FS-5W. The second one is the fremont car that I have in the registry and just has this on tag. ACC 23742. Both 4 speed cars and 2dr coupes. I would like to attach pics of the tags as well but file is to large could email to someone and they could resize and post for me. Thanks Glenn
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My first car that sat next to the convertible that gs sizzler was talking about in the junk yard had the code as follows E-2lPR-3H-4FS-5W. The second one is the fremont car that I have in the registry and just has this on tag. ACC 23742. Both 4 speed cars and 2dr coupes. I would like to attach pics of the tags as well but file is to large could email to someone and they could resize and post for me. Thanks Glenn
Glenn - Try opening your pics in Paint and there should be a re-size option. I use about 40%, then save.
Cowl tag pic attached.
Dwaine
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Here are my cowl tags. Thanks Welder
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Glenn, the second tag is a Fremont, CA car. 'BF' stands for Fremont. What you have is about all you get.
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My first car that sat next to the convertible that gs sizzler was talking about in the junk yard had the code as follows E-2lPR-3H-4FS-5W. The second one is the fremont car that I have in the registry and just has this on tag. ACC 23742. Both 4 speed cars and 2dr coupes. I would like to attach pics of the tags as well but file is to large could email to someone and they could resize and post for me. Thanks Glenn
Glenn - Try opening your pics in Paint and there should be a re-size option. I use about 40%, then save.
Cowl tag pic attached.
Dwaine
I've tweaked some site settings that should resize everything automatically now. You shouldn't need to resize anything prior to posting as long as it's under the allowable size of 3MB. This won't fix anything that was posted before I made the changes however it should catch everything new.
Thanks,
Chris
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(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f376/Wildcat65/E8D4CC6C-2497-4C6D-91AE-487330E15C44-5499-00000777740DE5EA_zps5f4ac4d3.jpg)
I forgot this one is a Kansas City car. Has the S
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Trim plates ! what color would you like? Ted your car also has 2D on it?
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The "D" code on Ted's trim tag spiked my interest also. It's in the second group which usually has something to do with the transmission options and console options. Jon, do you know what it means?
John
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Are there any Skylark or Special owners that could check their trim tags for a "S" code? Pretty confident that they won't find the "S" code. It looks like there are no exceptions thus far, to the "S" code being found only on '65 GS built in the Fremont, KC and Flint plants. 'Nuff said.
Tom, what we can't afford, we can dream about.
John
I checked my 4 door skylark and the Special Wagon and there are no S codes. Both are Flint built.
Now I want to recheck the Skylark as it has the firewall holes with block off plates like my GS.
Ted
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I have a firewall tag from an early 65 GS that I got from a guy that parted out a very rusty car that had a BBC and muncie 4-speed in it when he got it. I will dig it out and scan a pic of it and post it. If I remember right, the only code on it was 4s. The car had no options, so the 4s made since for a no options 65 GS.
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I've looked at 4 different 65 GS's in the past month, all had the 'S' code on the tag.
The 3 Baltimore-built cars ONLY have ONE code on the plate.... the 'S'.
Anyone have a Baltimore-built car with more than a 'S' code?
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Walt, any clue what the code is consistent between the 66 GS cars? I noticed the 66 tag posted by Paul M. today does not have a 4S, but instead has a 4C code I am not familiar with.
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I just checked the cowl tag on my GS. It's a May built car with a 4-speed. It has an "S" on the cowl beneath all of the other info. Just turned 48,052 miles.
Jonesy :violent5:
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I found the tag I was talking about. Came off of a 65 GS that was either a 3 or 4 speed originally. This was an early build, small emblem car.
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Here is a picture of the tag from my car.
Keith
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John, I have found only one other 2D car in my info ( did not write down what options car had)
but not sure what this one means? I wonder if Ted's car
was a radio or heater delete car? I will dig through the files and post
the codes that I have info on! with what they mean!
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Here you got a pic. of my cowl tag.
Br Anton
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I have found only one other 2D car in my info
There's a '66 build sheet in the Gallery... Literature, page 9.
2D= 'A/C prov dealer'
Ted mentioned his car has the firewall cutouts (and block-off plates) for A/C.
It's very possible the 2D code was also the 'A/C mod' in '65.
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I still have to check my skylark 4d to see if it has the 2D as it has the same a/c cut outs and plates.
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Fellas, here are two cowl tags from 65 GS's i owned in the past. the yellow one is from a numbers matching post car with the A/C prep panels on the firewall, the other is from a 65 GS post 3 speed
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Here are the ones that I can find so far and remember
First group
W = tinted windshield
E = tinted glass all
O= painted top diffferent from rest of body
X= power windows
T= power bucket seat (drivers)
second group
B= 3spd trans for gs
F=consolette
G= floor shift auto console
K=factory A/C
L= 4spd trans
O= storage console
R=rear seat speaker
X= auto trans
third group
B=rear defogger
H= belt revel ( wide trim) wheel well trim
fourth group
F=remote mirror
S= Gran Sport ornamention
fifth group
K= door edge gaurds
W= chrome ( buckles) seat belts with retrators
5= plastic ( buckles) seat belts
I might be off on some of these so don't sue me ! I only have two bucks to my name! :wave:
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Why wouldn't the yellow tag has an S code on it? Thank you for sharing information. I hope to own a 65 down the road.
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So, what does this one tell you about this car?
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag150/Moparjim71/image_zpsaf794573.jpg) (http://s1303.photobucket.com/user/Moparjim71/media/image_zpsaf794573.jpg.html)
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Jim,
The yellow tag is from a Baltimore built car. The codes are different then those of the other assembly plants.
Loren
Loren/ Jim,
The yellow tag has the plant code of 'BF' which = Fremont, California. That plant didn't put the option codes on the cowl plate data tag, but instead used an undecipherable (to us) number (19350)that linked the car build to in-plant records (now long gone).
FB= Flint, Michigan
BAL= Baltimore, Maryland
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Jim, the yellow tag is from a Z code Freemont CA Bulit car!.
the trim tag pictured reads 12-c =Decemeber third week of 1964
65 = year 44437 skylark v-8 hardtop FB= Fint ,MI plant 57740 = unit number
138= black cloth vinyl bench seat LL=midnight aqua top and bottom paint
2x= auto trans 2p= back up lights
Hope this helps , the rivets on the trim tag also look different then the ones that I have seen? Jon
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the trim tag pictured reads 12-c =Decemeber third week of 1964
65 = year 44437 skylark v-8 hardtop FB= Fint ,MI plant 57740 = unit number
138= black cloth vinyl bench seat LL=midnight aqua top and bottom paint
2x= auto trans 2p= back up lights
Jon
Jon, That's what I was going to say!
So Jon, this would be too early to be a GS correct?
The 2x also means it's not a 4 speed car.....it would be an '2L' code.
Jim, if this is the NYC car, I sort of recall something being wrong on the tag... and this would confirm that (it's been a couple of years). When Ron's son bought the car, we did correspond about some of the details. I recall it did have the GS-only (big block) steering column in it, and IIRC, the GS-style boxed frame.
I wouldn't verify it's a real GS, but it does appear to have the correct parts.
There were threads about the car 4+ years ago when he bought it. V8Buick or the BPG site. I'll have to look.
It's still a good value for a great looking A/C 4 speed car, even if it turns out to not be authentic.
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Yes, the early dated cars where built the second week of January ,the earlist known cars have date codes around this time!
Also a gs built at Flint would or should have bucket seats, code for console, and the S code to?! It doesn't mean that this car is not a real
gs , just maybe that the trim tag has maybe been replaced or is missing info? Jon
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Thank you all for the responses. Yes, it is the NY car. Being 1300 miles away I can't just go look at it so I appreciate your help.
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Sorry for reviving this old thread but the last time I saw the green NY car for sale at a consignment place it had a different cowl tag in place so someone changed it. Now shows as a GS 4 speed AC car on the tag. The car did sell, not sure where it went to.
Brian, for 66 the designation was incorporated into the VIN number.
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Sorry for reviving this old thread but the last time I saw the green NY car for sale at a consignment place it had a different cowl tag in place so someone changed it. Now shows as a GS 4 speed AC car on the tag. The car did sell, not sure where it went to.
Jim, didn't your brother own that car for a while? Or maybe it was another boardmembers brother....
Seemed like a nice car, only the 425 and the cowl tag made it otherwise incorrect.
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Yes, he did. It was a good value car for the price, just not a validated Gran Sport. I suppose to the new owner it's a tag verified GS now.