65GS.com - Buick Gran Sport Enthusiasts!
General Discussion => GS Questions => Topic started by: Pete Phillips on January 11, 2017, 10:26:14 AM
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I'm being challenged by a potential buyer of my car, that it might not be a genuine GS. It has the battery tray on the driver's side, the wider front anti-sway bar, the supplemental plates over the motor mounts (torsion plates?), no exterior side molding other than the venti-ports and Skylark head on front fender, no evidence of side molding holes being filled on the back of the fenders or rear quarter panels, 401 4-barrel engine with the correct "LR" code--but no serial number after that, except for the numbers 351, provision for dual exhaust (previous owner converted it to single exhaust but the hangers and hardware for duals are still there), bucket seats, console, floor shift lever, and the larger 1-1/8 inch front brake wheel cylinders. Also has the Gran Sport name plate on the grille, trunk lid, glove box door, and C-pillars.
I will attach a photo of the data plate on the firewall. Interested to see what this knowledgeable group says.
Pete Phillips, BCA #7338
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Hi Pete,
Your GS is a Fremont built car. There are no codes on the data plate that will tell you about options - this a Fremont only quirk since they had their own coding system. Car is a third week of March car - well past the GS build start date, so ok there. Paint code is DD - Astro Blue top and bottom. Trim is 191 - Blue bucket seats. You might want to check the code on the front of the engine. it is located on the front, by the lifter valley cover. Should be the VIN there. you can check that vs the VIN plate in the door jamb. If it's the original engine, those codes will match, and most GS cars will have "LR" stamped on the same area as the VIN number. Please note - some GSs had "LT" codes, which is ok.
I'm pretty confident from all the pics I've seen that it is a real GS!
Mark
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Pete,
The VIN is stamped into the drivers side front of the engine opposite side from the LR 351 stamping. If it matches you are golden. If not I agree with Mark that it is almost definitely a Gran Sport from everything I have seen.
Dan
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It could be.
(Mark beat me to the response).....Most assembly plants will show the '4S' code on the cowl data plate, denoting the GS option.
The exception is the Fremont plant, which did not put the codes on the cowl plate, just a manifest number that is indecipherable. Your car was built in Fremont, hence no code shown for the GS option.... the likely reason the purchaser is questioning the authenticity.
Your transmission may have the VIN stamped on the trans, usually on the top surface of either the tail housing or the rear bearing support (between main case and tailhousing).
If there is any paperwork inside the car, it should show codes or components used only for a GS. A build sheet could be hidden somewhere (a rare find), or a Fisher build sheet may be stuck in the underside of the rear seat.
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Walt,
The Fremont cars sometimes have a hand written sheet stashed somewhere in the interior that has all the codes on it.
I found two such sheets - one under the carpet, and another jammed in the seat cushion of one of the buckets seats.
I think Dan found one in his car too.
A couple of other points: if was not a GS, and a Skylark post car, there would be evidence somewhere of removal of the halo moldings.
Pete's car has the proper GS roof trim. Another thing that throws some people is the post cars use the Special door panels and seat
pattern.
Mark
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Boxed frame?
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Boxed frame?
You beat me to it.....your post came up as I was typing the same thing. Since the car is not a convertible, and if it has the boxed convertible frame, that's strong further evidence that it's a GS.
Chuck
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It should also have that Tach wire coming out of the wire harness & taped up near the drivers side wheel well.
Tony
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If the VIN on the block matches its for sure since you couldn't get the 401 in the plain Skylark. There's a lot of Fremont cars out there.
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It appears to have the cross-bracing on the radiator support as well as a cross-flow radiator.
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Maybe he's trying to use it as a bargaining tool .
Theres just to much correct about the car not to be a true GS .
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Dear Pete, Mark, Dan, Walt, Bill, Chuck, Tony, Jim, Tom, John, and mid-60s Buick experts at . . . . . "spitting hairs!"
Interested to see what this knowledgeable group says.
I was very interested when Pete asked this question, but . . . . . . WOW!!
Maybe Loren has been going all wrong as far as figuring out a way to support 65GS.com. Perhaps he should come up with a game show where guys on this board are given a few clues and are challenged - is it a 1965 GS or not!! :icon_scratch:
Great job guys! :icon_thumright:
Cheers, Edouard :occasion14:
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... Perhaps he should come up with a game show where guys on this board are given a few clues and are challenged - is it a 1965 GS or not!! :icon_scratch:
Great job guys! :icon_thumright:
Cheers, Edouard :occasion14:
yes!
Maybe a screw, a fuse or a bolt. No doubt, someone will be able to tell. :icon_biggrin:
Put CSI to shame.
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Walt,
The Fremont cars sometimes have a hand written sheet stashed somewhere in the interior that has all the codes on it.
I found two such sheets - one under the carpet, and another jammed in the seat cushion of one of the buckets seats.
I think Dan found one in his car too.
Mark
The Bamboo Cream car Dan bought from me had that handwritten code sheet. I might have a photocopy of it somewhere.
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Thanks for the info. My car definitely has the boxed frame, cross-flow radiator, and the "X" braces in front of the radiator. It also has the tachometer wire feed taped up near the driver's front wheel well. I cannot find anything under the seats--they were recovered years ago. The engine block has absolutely no evidence of a VIN stamped in it, opposite the LR-351 stamping.
Pete Phillips, BCA #7338
Leonard, Texas
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To the guys who contributed the information on this thread, would you give me permission to quote your replies and make an article about this for the Buick Bugle? I think it's been a good learning experience, with a lot of good information that isn't always available. and I can document it with photos of parts of my car. It would be good publicity for this group, I think.
What would REALLY make it a great article would be to match the photos of parts of the Gran Sport with photos of the same areas on a regular '65 Skylark or Special. Anybody have access to one? If so, take photos of the frame, the radiator, the battery tray, the side moldings, the roof trim, etc., and email them to me, and I will put the article together.
Pete
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It would be an interesting article, just don't title it "How to clone a '65 GS" !! :icon_biggrin:
We could add a lot more info, we've only touched on the differences.
There was a booklet included in the service bulletin package that covered many the items specific to the '65 GS models.
Some of the less-known items included:
- Rear axle housing with larger wheel bearings, specific to GS and Sportwagon.
- Steering column has a removable steering box flange to allow removal.... GS has little clearance between the upper Arm shaft and exhaust manifold.
- Bucket seats were a required option.
I had scanned the booklet years ago, I just have to find it.
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I agree it would make for a good article. I'm sure that there is more then enough knowledge here to help with that.
To me, looking from a $$$ stand point, it does not make sense to "clone" a '65 GS. Unfortunately, a '65 GS doesn't command the big $$$ like say a cloned GTO might.
Without a serious amount of work, unless the Skylark is a convertible, there is the boxed frame difference that a hardtop or post Skylark won't have. In my humble opinion, the difficulty of finding the GS specific trim parts is bad enough, much less going through the work and expense to change out a frame.
Loren
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Pete,
You have my permission. Someone with a nice Skylark will have to step forward, I know there are some nice ones here.
If there is anything you need, we will help. Thank you!
Mark
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Pete,
The article sounds like a good idea. Feel free to quote me. Finding a really nice Skylark will be difficult. Maybe another BCA member could help you out.
Dan
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Dear Pete, Walt, Loren, Mark,
What would REALLY make it a great article would be to match the photos of parts of the Gran Sport with photos of the same areas on a regular '65 Skylark or Special.
I don't know if there is any interest, but if there is a need for photos of a Special specifically, my wagon's exterior is essentially completely original. As far as I remember the exterior trim was different between the Specials and the Skylarks and GS.
To me, looking from a $$$ stand point, it does not make sense to "clone" a '65 GS. Unfortunately, a '65 GS doesn't command the big $$$ like say a cloned GTO might.
Perhaps something equivalent to that sentence should be included in the article. Any article like this will have to touch on the value of these cars. So pointing out that an attempt to clone a 1965 GS isn't worth the effort is basically giving the readers an honest assessment of the situation.
Thanks Pete for the suggestion! :icon_thumright:
Cheers, Edouard
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If needed, you have my permission to use any of my comments. I know we have lots of pictures of 65 GS cars and that there are some Skylarks and at least a Special or two. Kevin (Rollaround) has a nice Special and I'll bet he has some pictures that could be used.
Sounds like a great idea, both informational and to put the 65 GS in the limelight again!
Cheers!
Chuck
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These are images of the handwritten sheets found in my GS. Small one was in the bucket seat cushion, jammed between the springs and foam. Never saw it until I started taking the seats apart for Loren to do his upholstery job.
I have images of these from 2 or 3 other Fremont cars.
The next unsolved mystery is what is the circled number in the upper left corner for? All the ones I've seen have this.
I should clarify - these are from Fremont cars.
Mark
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....The next unsolved mystery is what is the circled number in the upper left corner for? All the ones I've seen have this.
Could be the sequence number....in your case, car #719 on the assembly line in that day.
The Fisher Body cards I've found in my 66's have the sequence number in upper left corner.
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Hi Pete you have my permission too, we should all post how many years that we each have been working on Gran Sports or just Buicks. The amount of years must be quite a staggering number. I started working on Buicks with my father 41 years ago and purchased my first 65 Gran Sport 27 years ago, time sure flies when you are having fun with Buicks !!
Tony
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You have my permission too, just in case I said something intelligent. I have continuously owned at least one or more nailhead Gran Sports since 1975.