Remove the starter from my GS

[WkillGS]

..... solenoid.....

I once removed the solenoid from the starter body to ease starter removal.  I can't say it's worthwhile doing that, but if you need just a little more room to get it out, it may work for you. And that's with the manifold loose, mount unbolted, and engine jacked up. R&R'ing the solenoid with the starter down there isn't easy....

The GM starter solenoids need a good bit of current to actuate. When they start to go, you may see the symptoms you have.
An option is to use a Ford style solenoid mounted a short distance from the starter where it's cooler and not likely to experience heat soak. This will activate the solenoid still mounted on the starter, but move the switching function to the remote solenoid.
There used to be a kit called the 'Start 'em up' kit, but you can buy a 'Remote starter solenoid' from Jegs/Summit for about $20.

[schlepcar]

Definitely not as easy as it sounds getting the GS starter off. Funny thing about my car was engine was all done and back in the car when I purchased it. The previous owner had done a complete rebuild and put the original starter back on. After a few months it went bad and he tore off manifold,mounts,etc and took it apart. It sat in his garage literally years and then he could not find the original starter. I actually bought the car just on his word that it ran...and found a junk OEM to rebuild to fire it up. I had no idea it was such a pain to get to. You could do 10 chevys or Ford?s in the same amount of time. Good news is that it?s a Buick so most of it lasts a lot longer.

[GS66]

I also like how the mini starter spins the motor over. Currently have 3 minis in use.

[option B9]

    I had to change the cable going from the horn relay to the starter, since I had to remove the starter to remove the wire I decided to install a mini starter from Tom Telesco. I removed the original starter by loosing the exhaust manifold , then tied a strap around the starter and had my son hold the strap from above as  I wiggled it loose. Once I had it where it was coming down my son lowered it down slowly as I guided it to the floor, being very careful not to get hurt. After the cable & wires were switched over the mini starter was so easy to install. I recommend Tom's mini starter to everyone.
    Afterwards I cleaned the stock starter, wrapped it up in bubble wrap and put it in a nice cardboard box and gave it to another GS owner never wishing to see that big heavy starter ever again !!                           
                               THANK YOU TOM... 

          Tony

[campfamily]

So got the starter out, finally, after a whole lot of maneuvering and twisting and holding my mouth just so. Have sent a check to Tom for a mini starter. Next question; do I need to leave the engine lifted and manifold off to get the new starter in? Reason I ask is that I would like to start putting everything back together while I wait for the new one to arrive, so I can free up lift space sooner. Also, should I hang on to the original starter? Not sure if this is a unique part for our cars, or if it's pretty common.

Again, thanks all on this board for the help. Looking forward to getting Bianca back on the road. ????

Keith

[Brian]

Definitely do not get rid of the original starter!  They are unique to the nailhead engines. 

[Loren At 65GS]

So got the starter out, finally, after a whole lot of maneuvering and twisting and holding my mouth just so. Have sent a check to Tom for a mini starter. Next question; do I need to leave the engine lifted and manifold off to get the new starter in? Reason I ask is that I would like to start putting everything back together while I wait for the new one to arrive, so I can free up lift space sooner. Also, should I hang on to the original starter? Not sure if this is a unique part for our cars, or if it's pretty common.

Keith

  Go ahead and put it all  back together. There’s plenty of space to get the mini starter in

Loren

[campfamily]

So got the starter out, finally, after a whole lot of maneuvering and twisting and holding my mouth just so. Have sent a check to Tom for a mini starter. Next question; do I need to leave the engine lifted and manifold off to get the new starter in? Reason I ask is that I would like to start putting everything back together while I wait for the new one to arrive, so I can free up lift space sooner. Also, should I hang on to the original starter? Not sure if this is a unique part for our cars, or if it's pretty common.

Keith

  Go ahead and put it all  back together. There’s plenty of space to get the mini starter in

Loren

Thanks, Loren!!

Keith

[Loren At 65GS]

You’re welcome Keith.

Loren

[campfamily]

Update.....received the mini-starter from Tom in the mail today.....it's a cute little thing!! It actually arrived on Friday, but we weren't able to get it until today. So, thanks to Tom and to everyone else here for the advice and recommendations. Can't wait to get it installed.

However, while working on the car on Saturday, securing the engine back on the engine mounts, re-installing the fan and the exhaust manifold, I decided to pull the inspection plate on the bottom of the transmission to check on the flexplate. Some of you may remember that I have previously posted that my car has a habit of cracking the flexplate; in fact, since I've owned it, I've had to replace it twice already. And, yes, the flexplate is cracked again, in the same place (around the inner bolt holes). When it cracked previously, I had a highly respected transmission shop (Remec Transmission in San Dimas, CA) replace it, and also try to figure out what was causing it to break. They rebuilt the transmission, replaced and balanced the torque converter, checked endplay on the crank, and verified transmission/engine alignment. Obviously, none of those fixes were the cause.

I have a couple of spare flexplates, and so I bolted one up to the crank. Believing that any problems on the transmission side have already been addressed, we decided to focus on the engine side. We noticed that the edge of the flexplate was moving back and forth relative to the bellhousing as the engine was rotated by hand. The variation is about 1/16", measured by hand with a depth gauge. We're in the process of removing the plate and then setting up a dial indicator to measure any variation on the end of the crank, in case the flexplate itself is bent.

So my questions to you guys are:

1) What is the expected variation I should see on the end of the crank as the engine rotates? (that will obviously be magnified as you go out to the edge of the flexplate)
2) What could cause a large variation in this measurement? A bent crank? (Sure hope that isn't what is wrong with my car)
3) Is there a way to "true" this up, either with shims, machining, something else? (May be a real dumb question, but asking it anyway)
4) Is there something I'm missing?
5) Could this variation be why I'm breaking flexplates? The last plate was replaced about 1200 miles ago. I have no idea how long it has been cracked.

Again, thanks to all of the experts on here.....

Keith

PS - wondering if I should strip this off into it's own thread?

[yachtsmanbill]

One word comes to mind; chinaman. Are these OEM flex plates or, ahem, an import? Off the top of my head, just about any crank facing machine work will be about .000" to maybe not much more than .001" If you check the CLEAN axial and radial (face and rim) youll hafta account for some thrust on the crank. That should be maybe .005-.008". For exact numbers youll need to look that up.

If the torque converter was balanced, the center face and 3 mounting holes should all lay on a flat plane, as in + or- .002-.003".  Rotating the bare wheel (no torque converter installed, the plate may run out 1/16- 1/8" since its a welded unit. Bolting it all together should prove it to be a flat assembly. Is there any chance the wheel is installed backwards? Some wheels have an odd spaced bolt hole to prevent this. The bolts were not forced in at all were they? Im not a nailhead guy, but is there a missing one piece washer for the six bolts? Going through that many wheels in a short time  is going to prove something amiss between all the assemblies.

Maybe consider checking the trans shaft for runout. Check the inner (input) and the outer (pumpshaft). Those should both run pretty close to true, installed in the trans case with bearings. (I'd also consider a new front trans seal while its apart!).

As stupid as it may sound, any chance the old starter bendix was running interference? As in engaging TOO far? I really thing youd hear that engaging the starter.

Lastly, back to the mounting bolts, are they correct? If the points on the heads dig into the wheel, that can cause a stress area (hence the washer question).

I hope you're using a rack; laying on the floor doing this job really blows LOL!!   Bill

[campfamily]

One word comes to mind; chinaman. Are these OEM flex plates or, ahem, an import? Off the top of my head, just about any crank facing machine work will be about .000" to maybe not much more than .001" If you check the CLEAN axial and radial (face and rim) youll hafta account for some thrust on the crank. That should be maybe .005-.008". For exact numbers youll need to look that up.

If the torque converter was balanced, the center face and 3 mounting holes should all lay on a flat plane, as in + or- .002-.003".  Rotating the bare wheel (no torque converter installed, the plate may run out 1/16- 1/8" since its a welded unit. Bolting it all together should prove it to be a flat assembly. Is there any chance the wheel is installed backwards? Some wheels have an odd spaced bolt hole to prevent this. The bolts were not forced in at all were they? Im not a nailhead guy, but is there a missing one piece washer for the six bolts? Going through that many wheels in a short time  is going to prove something amiss between all the assemblies.

Maybe consider checking the trans shaft for runout. Check the inner (input) and the outer (pumpshaft). Those should both run pretty close to true, installed in the trans case with bearings. (I'd also consider a new front trans seal while its apart!).

As stupid as it may sound, any chance the old starter bendix was running interference? As in engaging TOO far? I really thing youd hear that engaging the starter.

Lastly, back to the mounting bolts, are they correct? If the points on the heads dig into the wheel, that can cause a stress area (hence the washer question).

I hope you're using a rack; laying on the floor doing this job really blows LOL!!   Bill

These are OEM flexplates, but they are all used. I am not aware of anybody making replacement parts except for Russ Martin. When we rotated the bare wheel with no torque converter installed, we saw about 1/16" variation side to side max, measured with a plate of metal bolted to the bell housing and using a depth gauge on each side for various engine rotations. Next step is to remove the plate and measure the actual end of the crank. The flexplate can be installed in any orientation. However, there is a hole that lines up with a hole that is machined in the back of the block to alert you that it is wrong. The flexplate cannot be installed backwards, it would not clear the back of the block, and would not reach out to the torque converter. Each of the six bolts had a star washer, is that correct? I torqued the bolts to 50lbs, that was the spec I found in a shop manual my father in law had. I'm pretty confident that the transmission is good, as the guy that replaced the flexplate is well known for racing transmissions, and was specifically looking for ways that the transmission could be causing the flexplate to break. He also looked at the engine side, and may have noticed that the flexplate wasn't completely flat. Thus, why I'm asking here if it has to be completely flat.

I'm also wondering about the starter. Would be really nice if Tom's mini-starter not only made future repairs easier, but also fixed this problem as well!!

Yes, my father-in-law has a lift. However, he's about 6" shorter than I am, so I get to work hunched over a bit. But, still way better than working on my back!!

Keith

[yachtsmanbill]

Not too sure about the star washers... exspurts??  Thr front of the wheel should be pretty flat. At least as far as hole upsets from poor bolting is concerned (raised edges around the bore and the holes). Again, being a welded (fabbed) part, even with a slight dish, the face should pull flat against the crank. Did you check the wheel hub with a 6" straight edge? Check that against a feeler gage. Again, flat isnt the issue but smooth is.

I have ZERO experience with nailheads... are all the wheels absolutely the same? Bores (center holes) all the same? If its like any other Ive seen, that fit is so accurate that you almost need to twist the wheel against the crank flange to seat it.  The crank flange needs to equally as flat.

Aside from that, is anything hokey going on with the timing? As in causing a jerking kinda movement at that point?

How was the TC balanced? Id hafta say that even if it were balanced as a unit, the stator or rotor parts may be individually out of balance causing a barely perceptible harmonic that could help cause the cracking. Im sure that youre aware of the science at least of metal fatigue. Is your TC stalled or stock? Ya have another to put in as a test? Something isnt Kosher right there.

One other issue is the mating surface from the TC to the wheel. The three mounting bolts and the center hub shouldnt have to bend the flex plate to mate up. That is all calculated into thrust and heat expansion (and even trans pump pressure) designs. You may have to straight edge the individual assemblies and do the math to be sure...

Tedious checking for sure!    Bill

[schlepcar]

Not sure if it was mentioned,but flywheel will bolt on six different ways and five of them are wrong. Any noticeable vibration when it was running before? There is also a remote possibility that it has a 64 or earlier crankshaft rather than a 65-6...different seat for the torque converter to mate with. Just a couple more things to look at.

[yachtsmanbill]

That was my concern (a few anyway!) about not being nailhead familiar. I do know theres some specific fitment(s) going on down there!   Bill