Da' further adventures of da' trusty billy-goat wagon!

[Rollaround]

Edouard,
What type of fuel pump do you have? 

[elagache]

Dear Michael, Kevin, and mid-60s Buick troubleshooters,

I can hear the tick. It sounds a little "stronger" than a lifter, but trying to diagnose a problem with a video/audio and not much else, "guesses" are going to be all over the place.

Compression testing, verifying proper valve travel would go a good way to rule out a bad cam lobe, collapsed or failed lifter bent valve or other valve components.

Greg at Orinda Motors also thought it was more serious than a lifter goofing off.  It certainly didn't help that the cooling fans kicked in at the start of the video.  Without that the sound is much easier to hear.

I hope it isn't the cam because this is a hydraulic roller camshaft.  It should well protected.  It does seem like it is time to explore the valve train and see.

Someone with good stethascope skills can be invaluable in sourcing a tic.

Well last year I bought a Lisle 52750 Stethoscope kit:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015DLMOO/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

However, when I tried to use it on this noise I couldn't hear a thing.  I don't know if I hadn't assembled it correctly or was attempting to listen in the wrong place.

What type of fuel pump do you have? 

I have the Spectra Premium gas tank with the built-in electric fuel pump model: GM37EFI

http://ecat.spectrapremium.com/products/GM37EFI

It fits the 1965 El Camino and the GM wagons of this period used the same tank (with the exception of the Sportwagon and there is a tweak.)

So the fuel pump is far away from the engine and shouldn't be effected by engine heat.  On the other hand, I suspect there is something fuel related.  When I got Biquette started after 1/2 hour, she started, then the RPM porpoised almost to stalling before it stabilized for about 10 seconds or so.  I've seen this problem before and we replaced the fuel pressure regulator in hopes of curing the problem.  However, this behavior has been happening since the new electronic fuel injection system was installed.  I can't be certain but it "smells" fuel related rather than ignition.

Thanks guys for your feedback! 

Cheers, Edouard 

[Rollaround]

Edouard, I asked about the fuel pump because my LS powered 65 Special has the same or similar fuel tank with the same fuel pump.  When my pump failed after only 2000 miles that is exactly how it acted.  You should have a test port somewhere on your fuel rail to check fuel pressure.  You may be able to get a loaner test gauge from an auto parts store.
Mine would start, then run for about 30-45 seconds before stalling; my injectors need 50-60 PSI to operate.
When I tested mine I could watch the pressure began to drop from 55 psi until the engine stalled at about 20 PSI.  Just a thought, inexpensive to check.  You just need to know what your systems operating pressure should be.

[elagache]

Dear Kevin and mid-60s Buick EFI fans,

Edouard, I asked about the fuel pump because my LS powered 65 Special has the same or similar fuel tank with the same fuel pump.  When my pump failed after only 2000 miles that is exactly how it acted.  You should have a test port somewhere on your fuel rail to check fuel pressure.  You may be able to get a loaner test gauge from an auto parts store.
Mine would start, then run for about 30-45 seconds before stalling; my injectors need 50-60 PSI to operate.
When I tested mine I could watch the pressure began to drop from 55 psi until the engine stalled at about 20 PSI.  Just a thought, inexpensive to check.  You just need to know what your systems operating pressure should be.

Thanks for the suggestion.  There is a sensor that allows me to monitor the fuel pressure as part of all the other fuel injection parameters.  The FAST system only requires 43 psi and last time I checked, the pump was providing that.  I was observing brief drops in pressure, but the pump wasn't failing steadily.

Still, there is something clearly fishy in this system and your experience might well be relevant.  I was a bit concerned about buying an "off the rack" fuel tank and fuel pump combo.  I'm not sure I'll take this on myself or allow the gang at Orinda Motors to troubleshoot this, but next week one way or the other I'll get back to this one.

Today I had to get back to yard work and remove a large branch that had broken during all our California storms.  Always something!!   

Cheers, Edouard 

[Rollaround]

You might want to monitor the fuel pressure from the moment the key is turned on in in in until the engine stalls. 
When my pump failed it was not a sudden death.  It would start run for a few seconds then stall.

[elagache]

Dear Kevin and mid-60s Buick troubleshooters,

You might want to monitor the fuel pressure from the moment the key is turned on in in in until the engine stalls. 
When my pump failed it was not a sudden death.  It would start run for a few seconds then stall.

I will look into the pump's performance.  The engine has about 1000 miles since the TA-Performance build and I think I got about 1000 miles on the previous build.  So that would put the pump into about the 2000 miles range where your pump failed.  The only strange thing is that allowing the car to cool gets everything running again.  However, perhaps the pump is also cooling off and is now able to generate the 43 PSI needed to run this EFI system.

So it is definitely a suspect! 

Thanks for the observation!

Cheers, Edouard 

[elagache]

Dear mid-60s Buick caregivers,

This morning I got my trusty wagon on the road, determined to log what I now suspected was a low fuel pressure condition when the engine was warm.  Well, I had my laptop ready, my smart-phone was poised capture the engine stumbling.  Alas the hot start was perfectly normal even if I had driven the car about the same distance on the freeway as the previous failure.

Alas, the valve-train ticking sound returned.  Worse still, it wasn't present when the engine was cold, but developed after I got on the freeway.  That would rule out startup oiling issues.  This time I was able to get a decent video where you can hear it clearly:

https://youtu.be/UD_v0duJuOQ?t=10s

That link starts the video 10 seconds into the recording because before that the radiator fans were going.  Since I had the video on You-Tube, I sent it to Mike Tomaszewski at TA-Performance.  I then gave him a call to get his impressions.  The sound was clear to him, but that didn't lead on any diagnosis.

So at this point, the only thing to do is pull off the valve cover and see what might be going on beneath.  Biquette will head over to Orinda Motors tomorrow afternoon so that they can take a look and report back.

Anybody who thinks that owning a classic car doesn't involve a lot of care-giving - clearly has never actually owned a classic car!

Oh well, . . . .  Edouard

P.S. The failure to catch the low fuel pressure condition increases my suspicions that it is the gas tank fuel pump.  Something has to be overheating because otherwise allowing the car to cool off shouldn't allow the car to start again.  This morning was considerably cooler than the previous drive.  That wouldn't have a significant effect on the engine bay, but it could be significant for an overheating fuel pump.  So stay tuned - that's the next problem to troubleshoot.

[elagache]

Dear mid-60s Buick caregivers,

I brought my unhappy wagon over to Orinda Motors so that they could pull the valve covers off and see if there was anything that could be causing the ticking sound on the video.  Greg pulled the covers and the roller rockers and found some odd scoring on the rocker bearings.  Here is a photo with an example:



You can clearly see that the bearing on the right has some scoring that the bearing on the left doesn't have.  The other thing Greg spotted is that there is scoring on the tops of valves.  Here is a photo where you can make out scoring on every valve top in view:



Every valve top has this scoring pattern on both sides of the engine.  Greg has been working with Mike Tomaszewski to try to understand what is causing this.  However, the project is halted temporarily because Orinda Motors needs a special tool to access these valves.  It is on order and will arrive next week.

In the meantime I'm feeling just a bit nervous!! . . .

Oh well, . . . . . Edouard

[cwmcobra]

Edouard,

I understand your nervousness.  It's never fun to think about failures and repairs to an engine, especially one of this design and cailiber.   

A few comments from the pictures.  I wonder about the materials and hardness of the valve tips.  Virtually all intake valves are made from hardenable steel alloys.  Most exhaust valve materials are not hardenable and many have hardenable material welded to their stems or tips to provide the wear resistance of hardened steel.  Ask Orinda if there is obvious wear in the scuffed area on the tips of the valves.  If so, since this is a well maintained and low mileage engine, I'd suspect substandard valve tip hardness.

It's obvious that the valves are not rotating at all during operation.  If they were, the tips of the valves would be pretty uniformly shiny.  This wear pattern is the same for all valves and I'm wondering if the apparent grooves in the valve tips are sort of being captured by the rocker arm roller bearings and held in the same position all the time.  Either that or you have simply not applied enough foot pressure to the accelerator pedal to get the RPMs high enough to begin autorotation of the valves.    

A certain amount of valve rotation is good to clean combustion deposits from valve and cylinder head seats and to prevent valve stem wear.  This doesn't look normal to me.  It will be interesting to see when the valves are disassembled from the heads what the condition of the valve stems and seats are. 

Also, a couple of the valve tips have wear that doesn't extend all the way across the tip.  That's not terrible (and probably not uncommon), but it does create higher stresses on those tips due to less that full contact with the roller rocker arm.

Sorry for the length and detail.  Years ago I was a valvetrain engineer, so when I see stuff like this it brings out the old engineer in me. 

 

Chuck

[35chevcoupe]

Edouard ,
I agree with Chuck . Something does,t look right there .
Its hard to tell by the photos what is or isn,t happening but there is definately no valve rotation happening .   Its hard to tell by just looking at the pictures but it almost looks like there are  scuff marks on some of the valve keepers to . and maybe its just the light or glare off something .
Do you know any specifics on what brand of springs , valves , rocker arms were used ?  Theres a lot of things going on when it comes to valve train , spring pressure , rocker arm geometry , hydraulic or mechanical lifters , valve lash ? Just things to think about .
One thing I use on ALL my race engines is a bottle of Zinc additive , and not just for break-in I put it in every oil change . Now that has nothing to do with the valves not rotating but inside the roller on the end of the rocker there are lots of little needle bearings .

[Dr Frankenbuick]

As I recall, this is a hydraulic roller cam with stainless valves and higher then stock spring pressure in order to maintain valve control.  My guess would be preload issues or a lifter issue. Then I would look into a valve guide issue if not not either of those.

[elagache]

Dear Chuck, John, Good Dr., and mid-60s Buick trouble-shooters,

I understand your nervousness.  It's never fun to think about failures and repairs to an engine, especially one of this design and cailiber.   

*Sniff*, yes indeed!

It's obvious that the valves are not rotating at all during operation. 
. . . .
Either that or you have simply not applied enough foot pressure to the accelerator pedal to get the RPMs high enough to begin autorotation of the valves.   

It is possible that the engine hasn't been run hard enough for this to happen.  The new electronic fuel injection system has never worked quite right.  As a result, I've been reluctant to get the engine very hot, fearing that would cause it to stall.  Also, I'm worried about the intake air temperature.  On two occasions, it has been logged at over 40? above the ambient air temperature.  I'm concerned about the potential for premature detonation with intake air being so warm.  Another problem I was trying to solve.

Sorry for the length and detail.  Years ago I was a valvetrain engineer, so when I see stuff like this it brings out the old engineer in me.

Quite the opposite, thanks for your insights.  I might help uncover the problem!

Do you know any specifics on what brand of springs , valves , rocker arms were used ?  Theres a lot of things going on when it comes to valve train , spring pressure , rocker arm geometry , hydraulic or mechanical lifters , valve lash ? Just things to think about .

I don't know these things but this engine was rebuilt by Mike Tomaszewski at TA-Performance.  So Mike knows the components because either he manufactures them or sells them to Buick folks like us.  He will know what to expect for these components.

One thing I use on ALL my race engines is a bottle of Zinc additive , and not just for break-in I put it in every oil change . Now that has nothing to do with the valves not rotating but inside the roller on the end of the rocker there are lots of little needle bearings .

I agree on this one.  The engine has had Joe Gibbs HR1 oil with extra Zinc and I was going to switch to Brad Penn semi-synthetic once the engine was broken in.

As I recall, this is a hydraulic roller cam with stainless valves and higher then stock spring pressure in order to maintain valve control.  My guess would be preload issues or a lifter issue. Then I would look into a valve guide issue if not not either of those.

Mike has asked for the heads to be further disassembled to see if these sorts of problems are occurring.  So your intuitions are on the mark.

Thanks guys for your insights and support!     We'll just have to wait and see.

Cheers, Edouard

[elagache]

Dear fans of certain "Billy-goat" wagon,

I spoke to Mike Tomaszewski this afternoon to give him an explanation for why the additional checks he asked for have not been done yet.  He doesn't think the valve train damage is consistent with the engine not having been broken-in properly.  However, he has absolutely no clue yet why the valve-train is displaying the wear it has.  We'll just have to wait for Orinda Motors to obtain the tool to work on the valves and see what is uncovered.

Cheers, Edouard

[35chevcoupe]

Edouard ,
Not that this will fix your problem if there is one , but you mentioned ( break in ) .  Thats another thing I,ve gotten into doing automaticlly ( if possible ) and that is breaking my engines in on a engine dyno . 
For what it costs I think its well worth the time and money . The guy that does my machine work charges 300.00 a day . You can usually get a lot of tuning done in a few hours .
And who knows , like Chuck said maybe it just needs some more RPM,s .    A dyno session may have eliminated some of the questions were having . They usually run the engine thru the rpm range the engine will normally see . 1000 to 4000 rpm or whatever your comfortable with .
PLUS theres the satisfaction of standing there WATCHING your engine come to life for the first time in a controlled envirnment .
I,ll never forget my first dirt track engine hitting 8000 rpm on the dyno 

[elagache]

Dear John and mid-60s Buick caregivers,

Not that this will fix your problem if there is one , but you mentioned ( break in ) .  Thats another thing I,ve gotten into doing automaticlly ( if possible ) and that is breaking my engines in on a engine dyno .

Sorry I didn't explain myself too clearly on this one.  There isn't a dynamometer in Scottsdale, Arizona where TA-Performance is located.  Instead Mike Tomaszewski built for himself an engine test-stand using parts from an old Buick.  So the engine was broken in before it was shipped to California.  What I meant by break-in was the varied sort of driving to help components like the piston rings seat during the few 1000s of miles.

I wish TA-Performance could get access to a  dynamometer.  There is something neat about knowing exactly the peak horsepower and torque your engine is capable of.  It is something of bragging rights.

Cheers, Edouard