Author Topic: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...  (Read 3766 times)

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Offline wheelz

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SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« on: March 26, 2015, 08:09:06 PM »
But first, I will take you back to Scene One.
 
 
SCENE ONE:
1965 Buick GS Vert, (RED) rescued from some storage unit about 14 years ago.  Decent, minor rust, vert with power windows, power driver bucket, Factory A/C...lots of goodies. Wrong motor from a 65 lark, a 300v2 with wrong tranny.  Was told son wrecked the car in HS and they slapped in a 300 2v. st330 tranny. Never hooked it up.
 
2008, I stumbled upon a 65 GS Vert (BLUE) in Ohio with a NOM ~ 401, SP400 trans. Running, non driver. Rustbucket but lotsa good parts including 3:36 posi!  I drove this car up and down the driveway NO BRAKES>. ugh.. but the kids in the neighboorhood like the rumbbly noise...
 
SCENE TWO;
Decided to pull the 401 motor/sp400 from the Ohio (BLUE) car, disassembled the wrong 300 2 spd  from the GS LOADED (RED) vert and planned to install the 401 into it... I decided to keep the SP400 nailhead tranny for another day.  SO I recently purchased a ST300 65-66 GS tranny & convertor.   It arrived two weeks ago.
 
SCENE THREE:
Today was the day. With the 401 removed from the Ohio (BLUE) car, and bolted up the recently purchased SP300 65 GS tranny and droped in into the LOADED (RED) GS vert... still with me??
 
All day I was excited to finally get this thing together.. the (RED) 65 GS was finally on its way to recovery...  Hooked up cross member. Drive shaft. Cables, Exhuast. Electrical harness. Fuel lines. Booster brake vaccum lines, installed newly refreshed AFB carb...
Tested electrical circuits... everything seemed fine. Hit the key, . .  I said. . . HIT THE KEY!!!...   hmm. just a starter click.  nuttin else.
 
Tried several times. A click. NOT even a groan. CLick.  I started checking things out. I have a NEW 740CCA battery fully charged with 12.8 volts.
NOT the battery.
Checked the starter...
For some reason, I put a flywheel wrench on the ring gear and I COULD NOT MOVE THE MOTOR AT ALL... It seemed locked up.  Whatda???   This motor ran VERY WELL just 2 weeks ago??!!??
I mean IT WOULD NOT BUDGE.
SO for sheet'n grinz, I decide to loosen the tranny bell bolts from the 401 as best I could while still in the car... and when I did so, I could barely begin to turn the motor with the flywheel wrench. STILL very tight nevertheless, loose bolts DID allow the motor to somewhat spin.
 
SCENE FOUR:
SO guess whaut. . . I unhook everything and pull the motor/tanny out.   Arrraargh. Once out and back on my garage floor, I separated the motor/trans..and I could NOT see any issues with rubbing, or flywheel issues...  the motor spins freely again.  I have an old st300 2 speed trans from the 300 2v motor so I tried installing THAT CONVERTOR into the tranny to compare... the SP300 tranny I recenty purchased, the convertor looks exactly the same as the convertor I have from the 300 2v motor.  :icon_scratch:
 
AND it also BOUND UP the motor when the trany was mated up to the motor. Same scenario.  CANNOT SPIN THE MOTOR WHATSOEVER.  PERIOD. :violent1:
 
I do not know HOW to tell the diff's in a ST300 Convertor form the 65 Lark, vs SP300 convertor from a real 65-66 GS....??
 
ABout the only thing I can think of that I DID NOT change is the 401 flexplate, which WAS, hooked up to a SP400 tranny originally... ARE the flexplates different?  ie:  SP400, ST300 and SP300??
 
SCENE FIVE:
Its getting late here, so I cleaned up all my tools, greasy arm pits and chunks of grime from my hair... . I came in from the heat and frustration from battling this issue all afternoon... I am cleaning the dust off my Glock and I am going back out there tomorrow and I am gong to JUST SHOOT THE DARN THING...   :violent5:
 
Richard Prior got away with shooting his car, RIGHT?
 
 
Canya thumbiddy help me??  Preddy P L E A S E!!???
 
Wheelz, Tampa Bay
Wheelz, Tampa Bay

Offline Loren At 65GS

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Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 08:59:54 PM »
There's a good possibility that you don't have the torque converter completely seated into the pump.
With the engine and transmission bolted tight together, the converter should have to be pulled up to the flex plate about 1/2 inch.

Been there and done that 40+ years ago.

  Loren
65 GS htp BCA Senior
 65 Skylark coupe/2x4BBnailhead
 65 Skylark coupe v-6
 65 GS htp project
 70 GS 455 htp / original engine
 94 Roadmaster wagon
BCA 14371

Offline elagache

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Obviously . . . . (Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...)
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 09:14:34 PM »
Dear Wheelz, Loren, and mid-60s fans of sarcasm . . . .


SCENE ONE:

. . . . . . .

SCENE FIVE:
Its getting late here, so I cleaned up all my tools, greasy arm pits and chunks of grime from my hair... . I came in from the heat and frustration from battling this issue all afternoon... I am cleaning the dust off my Glock and I am going back out there tomorrow and I am gong to JUST SHOOT THE DARN THING...   :violent5:



In a situation like this . . .  exactly one thing is obvious . . . . . .

. . . . Ya' must have been goin' about it . . . . da' hard way!! . . . .

Hang in there wheelz . . . there is always a light at the end of the tunnel.  I just hope for the sake of both of us it isn't the headlight of a train coming the other way!!

Cheers, Edouard  :cheers2:

Offline wheelz

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Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 09:32:18 PM »
Guys... I have rotated the convertor DOZENS of times and seating it is not the problem...  I can "feel" when it 'slips in' and I have to PULL it out to rotate it again..several times TO BE SURE it was properly seated...

just say'n.  Can there be anything else???

The Flexplate on the 401 was ONCE a SP400... now being used as a SP300 flexplate...could that be an issue?? 

Im miffed... :tard:
Wheelz, Tampa Bay

Offline WkillGS

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Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2015, 12:33:42 AM »
My first thought was the converter wasn't in all the way and engaging the pump tangs.
Been a long time, but does the converter 'drop in' twice to get to it's final position?  First time it engages the splines, second time it engages the pump tangs.
Or the converter is ballooned.
There are different Nailhead starters, but I've only dealt with the 65-66 ones.
Flex plates are the same, should have two bolt positions for either the large 'big car' converter or the small GS one.

Wheelz, with the converter installed in the trans, can you put a straight edge across the bell and is there space between it and the converter?
I might be able to check one of my trannys to compare yours to.... if I can get to it. The weather here still sucks.... rain today, and chance of frozen stuff tomorrow morning.  .... and freaking cold again for Saturday, ugh!
Walt K
Eastern Pa

66 GS Astro Blue/blue 425 auto
66 GS Silver Mist/black 401 4 spd
66 GS Flame Red/black 401 5 spd
66 GS Saddle Mist/black 401 L76 auto
66 Special Flame Red/black 300 5 spd
65 GS vert Verde Green/ Saddle buckets 401 4 spd
79 Turbo Regal

Offline Loren At 65GS

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Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2015, 01:45:19 AM »
Walt, you are correct, it seats twice.

But , Wheelz says he has a space between the converter and the flex plate when engine and transmission are bolted together.  :dontknow:

  Loren
65 GS htp BCA Senior
 65 Skylark coupe/2x4BBnailhead
 65 Skylark coupe v-6
 65 GS htp project
 70 GS 455 htp / original engine
 94 Roadmaster wagon
BCA 14371

Offline Brian

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Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2015, 07:43:33 AM »
Dennis,
  If you leave out the bolts holding the torque converter to the flex plate, Can you move the torque converter in and out of the transmission with the transmission bell housing bolted to the engine?  If not, the torque converter is not engaging the two tangs on the front pump and is not fully seated. 
'64 Skylark 2dr ht 4 speed, 300-4
'65 GS ht, 4 speed,2-4s,AC,PS,PB,PW,Pseat,Tilt
'66 Skylark 2dr ht 300-2 automatic
'78 Yamaha DT 400 2 stroke
'88 Ford F-150 4x4 (used to be 4x2)
'89 Ford F-350 4x4
'03 Honda Accord Coupe V6 6-speed manual (daily driver)

Offline wheelz

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Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2015, 09:54:28 AM »
Ok, so, I'll bet I have missed the second "DROP IN" ...  I will attempt this again today.  ..AND I may've misunderstood, but, the convertor is TIGHT UP AGAINST the flexplate to the point that I feel 'pressure' on the flexplate as I attempt to tighten the tranny bolts....    :icon_scratch:
My guess is I will need to spend more CALMING TIME with the 'notches' in the assembly process and not get all twisted up which happens when I cant figure things out on my own..  :tard:  Ugh.

Thank Guys for all your help.
I will be posting results today sometime...

Wheelz, Tampa Bay

Wheelz, Tampa Bay

Offline WkillGS

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Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2015, 10:03:22 AM »
Ok, so, I'll bet I have missed the second "DROP IN" ... 

Try this:  push converter in till it stops, pull it out a hair, rotate converter a hair and push in again... repeat until it drops in all the way.
You have to pull the converter out a hair before turning, other wise you might just be turning the pump too, and it'll turn and you'll get nowhere.
Good luck!
Walt K
Eastern Pa

66 GS Astro Blue/blue 425 auto
66 GS Silver Mist/black 401 4 spd
66 GS Flame Red/black 401 5 spd
66 GS Saddle Mist/black 401 L76 auto
66 Special Flame Red/black 300 5 spd
65 GS vert Verde Green/ Saddle buckets 401 4 spd
79 Turbo Regal

Offline Mark Ascher

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Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2015, 10:03:51 AM »
Dennis,

Grab the nose of the converter with one hand, and spin the converter with the other. Push in gently on the nose whilst spinning, and wiggle it up & down. You will feel it go onto the splines easily enough, sometimes it takes a bit longer to drop onto the pump. Trans guy showed me that method. Good luck!

Mark
65 GS HT 4 Speed - BCA Senior 2015; AACA Junior First 2016
66 Impala 396/TH400/12 Bolt "Project Rodent Remediation"
69 Bel Air 2 Door Sedan "Project Junior Stock"
07 Honda Accord Sedan V6 6-speed manual (daily driver)

Offline Mark Ascher

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Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2015, 10:04:45 AM »
Beat me by 30 seconds Walt!

Mark
65 GS HT 4 Speed - BCA Senior 2015; AACA Junior First 2016
66 Impala 396/TH400/12 Bolt "Project Rodent Remediation"
69 Bel Air 2 Door Sedan "Project Junior Stock"
07 Honda Accord Sedan V6 6-speed manual (daily driver)

Offline WkillGS

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Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2015, 10:27:31 AM »
Okay, just checked the GS st300 that's out of my car..... properly seated, the converter body should not protrude past the bellhousing by more than 1/4" or so, or maybe 1/2" at the converter mounting bolt bosses. If it's 3/4"-1", it's not seated.

Mark, I'm surprised you beat me to the post too!... I'm a slow starter in the mornings, still having my morning coffee and warming up the living room with my wood stove. Rainy and 38 degrees outside, 58 inside. If I didn't have to work, I'd be tempted to take a drive to Wheelz's place for some warmth and sunshine!
Walt K
Eastern Pa

66 GS Astro Blue/blue 425 auto
66 GS Silver Mist/black 401 4 spd
66 GS Flame Red/black 401 5 spd
66 GS Saddle Mist/black 401 L76 auto
66 Special Flame Red/black 300 5 spd
65 GS vert Verde Green/ Saddle buckets 401 4 spd
79 Turbo Regal

Offline wheelz

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Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2015, 10:39:32 AM »
Walt and EVERYONE ELSE involved.... OUR DOORS ARE ALWAYS OPEN... we have sunny beaches... we have fresh Gulf Grouper samiches blackened or beer batter fried. . .cold drafts,   :cheers2: curley spicy fries.. suntanned young ladies to gaze upon :notworthy:... plenty of warm sun shiney 75 degree days and of course Buick stuff too!    So C'MON DOWN!!!   :wave:
(bring your wrenches!)   hehehe!

Wheelz, Tampa Bay


 
Wheelz, Tampa Bay

Offline schlepcar

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Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2015, 11:42:24 AM »
Dennis,
   It is nearly impossible to line up a converter correctly in the car. First put the original convertor showing face up and Note the cut out notches into your sight (about 3/8 by 3/8). Next look into the trans spline end,making sure the center shaft is seated and spinning freely,note the position of the two tabs on the pump. You may need a flashlight to take a mental note of their position. Now,when you put the convertor unto the shaft make sure you are aware of the cut outs on the convertor in relation to the tabs on the pump.
If done properly you can play with it and actually feel it going onto the tabs. Also,if you free spin the convertor it will make fluid pressure at the cooler line if properly set into the pump. Do not use a different convertor.Once you are positive that the convertor is in all the way,fasten it to the motor,and make sure you have clearance between it and the flywheel. I tried to ship it with the convertor installed to avoid these issues,but it was too heavy.Dan

Offline wheelz

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Re: SCENE FIVE: Just SHOOT the darn thing...
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2015, 02:21:59 PM »
Dan, Walt, Loren, Mark, Brian,  Edouardo....  (did I miss anyone?)
The motor was taken back out of the car yesterday when I realized I had a serious issue.  This morning I wacked-out my back lifting the tranny onto my bench so I could see UP CLOSE what was really happen'n.   :violent1:

I "marked" the tranny bell at the top center,  and also put a 'dot" on the convertor noting the position of the 'two tangs' in the tranny... as Mark and a few of you suggested, I rotated the convertor...  lifted. jiggled. pushed in...spun a lil more.  lifted. josheled around...pushed in a little more...lifted, spun, etc  over'n over again till I was sure I was doing something wrong...in the 30 minutes I did this, I counted  11 complete rotations and had serious thots about throwin' the tranny and convertor into the back of my Ram and driving to that Double AA, BEEP BEEP MCO tranny place just up the skreet...   
ONE FINAL last attempt, didnt even move the convertor and badda bing ~ badda boom, VOILA.. POPPED RIGHT IN.  Just. Like. That.   :thumbsup:

The motor/tranny is now back in the car... I am about to ONCE AGAIN, wire it up and hook up fuel lines, etc...

THANK YOU ALL for reminding me about having PATIENCE.  I dont ever recall having this much trouble with a convertor, but then again, I am no longer a young whipper-snapper..in fact, 30 years ago, I was 31 and I had much more stamina and patience.

YOU Guys are the best!

Updates coming soon.

Wheelz, Tampa Bay 

 


Wheelz, Tampa Bay