Does 'S' on cowl plate = GS option? (Balt-built cars)

[WkillGS]

I noticed the 'S' on the cowl tag of several 65 GS's built in Baltimore.
Then I saw that 'S' = GS option on this build sheet fragment. (Thanks to Al for pic)

Does this hold true on all the GS's you guys have?
Any exceptions? .... has it ever been on a Skylark or Special?

[Loren At 65GS]

Walt,
  We have found it to be a common thread on cowl tags of Gran Sports.
Another code that has question is "P". 

  Loren

[nut465gs]

Walt and Loren,

Flint built 1965 GSs and Kansas City built 1965 GSs have the "S" code in the fourth group of codes. Baltimore built 1965 GSs just have the "S" code only as shown in the photo. However, Fremont built 1965 GSs do not have the same code display system, therefore will not have the "S" code on the trim  tag. Loren, do you need a refresher course?  Sorry, couldn't resist, Loren, my long time mentor.

John

[WkillGS]

I guess my question is whether the 'S' code is a positive ID for the Gran Sport package.
Has it even been seen on a Skylark or Special?

[dsags]

Yes. No.

[WkillGS]

Yes. No.

Thanks Dan! Perfect answer.

[Loren At 65GS]

John,

  No refresher course necessary. Just doing the shuffle.

Walt, now that the proverbial cat is out of the bag, the "S" code is for the Gran Sport.
I think, Jon T was the first to bring this to my attention some many years ago.

There has never been an intention to keep secrets of this or anything else. At the same time it is necessary to be as certain as possible we are correct, before stating something is so.

I had previously always had the understanding that ALL '65 Gran Sports had "LR" engine code.
We have documented "LT" coded engines in some.  That fact showed me to be carefull.
 

   Loren

[nut465gs]

Walt and everybody else,

Jon T. also brought the "S" code to my attention a number of years ago. Jon is one of the most knowledgeable and respected '65 GS enthusiast that I know. At that time, I had just become the new "Keeper of the Registry" paper records, now referred to as the Archival Registry. This presented an excellent opportunity to pursue the meaning behind all the trim tag codes. However, these Registry entries did not record the VIN or the trim tag information. I then tried to reconnect with those in the Registry to update their entry which would include the VIN and the trim tag codes. I mailed out about 75 letters to the addresses on hand. Many came back as 'undeliverable'. But I did get back about 35 responses with the trim tag information included. The "S" code appeared on all the Flint, Kansas City and Baltimore built GSs, except one. However, I later became aware that that one "GS" was a clone. The owner was already aware that his "GS" was a clone. When Chris Horn set up this website, it was a natural fit to have the '65 GS Registry as a separate section. I feel that it was not my place to transfer the paper Archival Registry records over to the online Registry without the current owner's specific permission, for privacy reasons. I think that about 30 or so have Re-registered their GS to the Website's Registry. The online Registry's newer entries are also consistent regarding the 'S" code appearing on '65 GSs. Is this data pool large enough to make an unequivocal statement?

Last month, Loren and I got together to look through those Archival Registry records to search for a common thread for the "P" and "R"codes. We were looking specifically at the Backup lights, Push button radio, Posi-traction, Clock, Rear speaker and Two speed wiper options. There were too many conflicting examples to verify these options as "P" or "R" codes. Loren currently has the paper Archival Registry to do his investigative research. Loren, anything new to add?

This is an excellent opportunity for everyone on this forum to check to see if their '65 GS has the "S" code and report back any exceptions or consistencies. It's also a great opprotunity to speculate what the "P" and "R" codes may be. Bear in mind that the Fremont built GSs will not have an "S", "P" or "R" code as they used a different coding system on their trim tags. Also to bear in mind, some of these codes are also shared by other GM models and years, but many are not.

John Egel

[WkillGS]

Thanks, I don't recall seeing the' S= Gran Sport' ever being mentioned online before.
I recently looked at 3 65's and took a pic of the data plates. One was Fremont built. The two Baltimore cars each had only one accessory code on the Data plate..... 'S'. My vert is the same, 'S' only. It's a stripper with 4 speed, radio, and back-up lights as options. Apparently, Baltimore didn't include much info on the Data Plates. The Kansas plant includes nearly all the codes on the plate, and as you mentioned, Fremont used their own code system, presently undecipherable.

   Here's my theory on data plate codes:
   The cowl data plate is attached by Fisher body. It would only show the option codes necessary for options that require body modifications.....a posi rear doesn't require body mods, so a code wouldn't be included on the data plate. A radio would only require an antenna hole, which I believe would simply be plugged if a radio wasn't installed....no code.
   Options requiring body mods would have a code on the plate.... auto vs manual trans, consoles, air conditioning, and outside trim options would require different body cutouts, welded brackets,  or trim holes/studs.
   Here's a tough one.... the rear seat speaker option.... it requires a separate wire be installed before the sound deadening mats are laid on the floor, which is done at Fisher body, so a code would be required.
   By determining whether an 'option' needs mods that were performed at Fisher body, I believe is a key to determining whether it was included on the data plate.
   Here's an interesting read on how a Camaro was built:
http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml#fisher
   

[nut465gs]

Walt,

Your observations and conclusions about certain options needing Body by Fisher codes are right on. The posi-traction would not show up there. Regarding the radio, 2 speed wipers and back up lights, almost all '65 GSs came with those options, however not all have the "P"or "R" codes. My convertible has all those options but neither a "P" or "R" code. We have also found convertibles with those codes, so that eliminates the rear speaker as being one of those codes. Most of the codes are needed for "body piercing" options as you've mention. The search continues.

John

[Dr Frankenbuick]

For the good of the order, my Baltimore built 65 GS HT has the "S" in accessory (4th) row and my Baltimore built 66 GS convertible has an "R" there.   

[gssizzler]

Some of the conflicts with optoins can be that many options could be factory or dealer installed!

such as back-up lights, radios,rear defog, tilt , pb, ps,two speed washer, these  came in kits for the dealer to install!

I saw a  65 skylark convertible in a junk yard once that had the K on the fire wall tag, but never had air on it! it had the factory block off

plates on the fire wall where the cut outs were! sure wish I had photo's of this one!

[nut465gs]

Since Dr. Frankenbuick was the only one to respond regarding the "S" code on his '65 GS, does that mean there are no inconsistencies or contradictions? Or does that mean that there really is not that much interest in the 'S" code on Flint, Kansas City and Baltimore built 1965 Skylark Gran Sports? Just curious.

John Egel

[mdkd]

John

Were you looking for a response if we already have our cars in the Registry?

When I registered I indicated as a special note the items installed on the car that didn't come that way originally even if they were available.

Milton

[nut465gs]

Milton,

There are some here on the forum that may not have registered their GSs in the Registry. I guess I was looking for folks to pipe in if there was a contradiction that needed further attention. Yes, when registering your GS, in the comments section is where one should mention any changes from original factory options.

John