Installing a XFI Sportsman Throttle Body EFI System in a 1965 Buick.

[elagache]

Dear fans of “assertive” 1965 Buicks,

My trusty 1965 Buick Special is finally running again after a long struggle to fit her with a big-block Buick engine, a 200-4R transmission, and bunch of other changes.  When I first ordered the engine in 2011, I was persuaded to switch from a carburetor to the EZ-EFI 1.0 electronic fuel injection system built by FAST (Fuel Air Spark Technology).  Given the car’s history, it didn’t take a lot of persuading. 

As it turns out, my wagon has been relatively unlucky with both carburetors and now electronic fuel injection systems.  I don’t know well the car performed when I as a kid, but there was enough of a cold starting problem that my Dad opted to back-fit a manual choke (more on that later.)

In addition, my Dad and I undertook the risky project of rebuilding the Carter AFB carburetor sometime around 1975 or so, certainly before 1978.  I don’t why Dad thought this was necessary, but he clearly thought it was.  What made this project risky was that we only had one car at the time, so if something when wrong with the rebuild we were stranded.  Here is a snippet from the rebuild instructions.  I still have the sheet after all these years:



Note the date in the top left corner!

Somehow we got the carburetor back together at the end of the weekend and "Biquette" (that’s the family name for the car) was back in service.  I started to drive in the late 70s and soon came to really hate that manual choke.  Often I was sent to pick up my Dad from the train station after work and I would frequently forget to release the choke during the short drive.  As a result, when I tried to stop the engine - the dieseling was most unpleasant!

In 1979 we had Biquette’s engine rebuilt a first time and I pleaded for an automatic choke.  During the rebuild, Biquette was fitted with a 1968 Chevy carburetor (with a working automatic choke) which it was hoped would improve her fuel economy.  Alas, Dad never did learn which model of carburetor or which Chevy cars had them.  You can see were that would lead.

That unknown Chevy carburetor was a dependable performer.  It ran from 1979 until well past 2000.  Somewhere along the way, I found at (J.C. Whitney of all places) an electronic ignition conversion kit that put an end to replacing the points every 3 month.

Alas, finally that Chevy carburetor gave up the ghost and nobody was able to identify which model it was.  Actually the real problem was that the repair shop I was going to was losing interest in older cars, but I didn’t realize that at the time.

Since I knew Biquette had been originally fitted with a Carter AFB, I managed to get my hands on one of those rebuilt.  Alas it only lasted about 2 years before the rebuild - broke.  I sent it back to be rebuilt yet again, but the my repair shop just couldn’t install it correctly - nobody knew how to work on Biquette anyone.

At this point I was desperate and eventually found a new repair shop: Orinda Motors.  It turned out there was a lot of neglected maintenance to catch up on and as part of this Biquette was fitted with an Edelbrock Performer carburetor.  At least this carburetor worked, but it didn’t work particularly well.  It was necessary to leave the idle unusually high to keep the engine stable.

So what this long story shows is that - carburetors and I have never exactly gotten along.  So I leapt at the chance to switch to electronic fuel injection.

Fast forward to today and introduce a new and unexpected problem.  The EZ-EFI 1.0 system has a known annoyance: it periodically “hunts” for the lowest stable idle.  It does this even after it has supposedly completed its self-tuning procedure.

For most muscle cars this is only an annoyance.  The idle is a bit rough, but the computers never allow the engine to stall completely.  As soon as you step on the gas, the computer shifts into another mode of operation and the hunting problem goes away.

The fly in the ointment for my wagon is that I’m trying to keep the engine at as low an operating RPM as is practical to get better fuel economy.  Most muscle cars run with a comparatively short rear end, so the car won’t move without stepping on the accelerator pedal.  My wagon has a 2.78:1 rear end ratio which effectively allows her to operate more like a modern car.  On a surface road at 35 mph, the 200-4R transmission shifts into overdrive, and she coasts at idle.  In addition, such a tall rear-end means that the car will maneuver with the engine at idle.

It is these situations were the EZ-EFI 1.0 “hunting” at idle is no longer a minor annoyance.  Instead of being easy to control, the car can lurch unexpectedly because the fuel injection system will cause the idle to drop below what is stable and then give a shot of fuel to allow the engine to recover.  If you are trying to enter the garage, such lurching is most unwelcome!

Okay, given that this seems to be a software/firmware sort of problem, my first thought was to see if there was an upgrade for the EZ-EFI 1.0 system.  The only known update goes back to 2010 - before this model was purchased!  So there was no remedy available for the existing system.

The guys at Orinda Motors struggled with the problem a bit and eventually learned of a fellow by the name of Richard Nedbal who is based the Sierra foothills of California and is a specialist on FAST products.  Here is the website of his outfit:

http://www.fastmanefi.com/

Rich explained that the EZ-EFI 1.0 system is little more than a legacy product and FAST is now concentrating on their EZ-EFI 2.0 systems and later products.  He recommended the XFI Sportsman Throttle Body EFI model.  It has a similar installation footprint to the system already installed so the upgrade won’t be as painful.  This system is a hybrid in terms of tuning.  Unlike many systems, it does not require the car to be transported to a chassis dynamometer and tuned manually by a specialist.  However, it does allow you to modify the tune using a laptop and special software.  So unlike the EZ-EFI 1.0 system, if there is something unpleasant about the tuning of this system, there is a way to correct it.

In addition, Rich recommended having the fuel injection system also take over control of the ignition.  To do this he recommended the E6/E92 Ignition system kit.  These components will then be hooked up to a “dumbed down” MSD distributor that will simply serve to distribute the spark to the individual cylinders. 

This is a radical upgrade but it is really what I was desiring all along.  My goal was to modernize Biquette so that she could perform comparatively well with our modern cars.  The EZ-EFI 1.0 system was not a modern system, but basically a “smart” carburetor and, as it turns out, it isn’t very smart.  This new system will take advantage of the modern developments in fuel injection and control so that the engine will perform better on less fuel.

I placed the order for the FAST components and MSD distributor last week.  Alas, FAST is waiting for a shipment of air temperature sensors and won’t be able to ship their parts until this Friday.  Realistically, installation won’t start until the beginning of March.  Still I thought you guys might be interested in this more radical makeover of a 1965 Buick.  I’ll report on this thread on the progress as the work unfolds.

Cheers, Edouard 

[cwmcobra]

By all means, keep us posted Edouard.  Sounds like an interesting project that many could learn from.

Chuck

[GS66]

I have thoughts of this every so often too. Will be following along!

[elagache]

Dear Chuck, Jim, and fans of high-tech mid-60s Buicks,

Thanks guys!  I'll definitely keep you posted on how this project unfolds.  It isn't the sort of thing that will work if you are seeking 100% originality of course.  However, with a little clever hiding of components, I think you could have this sort of modern functionality in an engine bay that looks very close to what rolled off the assembly line in 1965.

By the way I got a chance to test another one of those modern conveniences yesterday.  We literally had a February heat-wave and yesterday when I had my wagon out for some exercise the car got hot enough that I needed to run the air conditioner!   The Vintage Air system did work great, but I sure would appreciate if the earth's climate would remember this is - after all - winter!

Cheers, Edouard 

Cheers, Edouard

[WkillGS]

Dear fans of “assertive” 1965 Buicks,

.... The EZ-EFI 1.0 system
....  The idle is a bit rough...
.... Most muscle cars run with a comparatively short rear end, so the car won’t move without stepping on the accelerator pedal.  My wagon has a 2.78:1 rear end ratio....

...... the car can lurch unexpectedly because the fuel injection system will cause the idle to drop below what is stable and then give a shot of fuel to allow the engine to recover.

It's not the difference in rear axle ratio, that's insignificant.
The stall speed of the converter is too low. A higher stall converter will slip more under those conditions (high idle) and the car will not creep or lurch (with brakes applied).

The 65 and 66 Buicks had a nice feature in the ST300 transmissions.... the 'switch pitch' converter.
I have a lumpy cam in my blue car (old Isky grind). With car stopped and converter in the 'low stall' position, it will pulsate when stopped.... the rumpity-rump of the engine transfers some power to the rear wheels (thru the 4.11 rear) and it does pull against the brakes in a pulsating way.
But with the converter in 'high stall' it slips enough so the engine can do it's rumpity-rump thing without the power getting to the rear wheels. It's perfectly content sitting at a stop light, smooth as can be.
Once under way, the converter switches back to low stall for more efficient operation.

Perhaps your "Biquette" would be much happier with a good ole Nailhead and st400!

[elagache]

Dear Walt and mid-60s Buick fans of stealthy high-tech,

First I must stand corrected.  I was describing the system that will be going into Biquette incorrectly.  It doesn't really have anything to do with the EZ-EFI 2.0 besides using the throttle body to house the injectors.  The Sportsman is much closer to the FAST XFI line of electronics.  The correct name (according to Rich) is:

XFI Sportsman Throttle Body EFI System

I updated my original post to correct the name.

It's not the difference in rear axle ratio, that's insignificant.
The stall speed of the converter is too low. A higher stall converter will slip more under those conditions (high idle) and the car will not creep or lurch (with brakes applied).

Unfortunately, no that isn't the problem.  For starters I wanted the stall converter to be as low as possible so that the fuel economy is better.  More importantly, my problem isn't when the brakes are applied but when I'm trying to move the car at engine RPMs very close to idle.  If you apply the gas the EZ-EFI changes mode, but if you are moving Biquette on a flat surface, Just releasing the brakes is enough to allow her to start moving.  If the idle was smooth enough everything would be under control.  However, if the EZ-EFI system causes the RPM to dip as say you are starting back toward the garage and then gives a shot of gas to avoid the engine stalling out, the car lurches unexpectedly instead of moving steadily toward the garage as you were expecting.  My foot is on the brake, so Biquette doesn't get anywhere, but this is really annoying.

According to Rich, the EZ-EFI 1.0 is simply obsolete even if it is still being sold.  It's time to move on to something sophisticated enough to keep the idle smooth no matter what.

Cheers, Edouard 

[elagache]

Dear mid-60s Buick fans of high tech,

If you have noticed this thread has been lacking any updates, there is a good reason for it - da' parts still aren't here!  Apparently the new XFI Sportsman is a very popular addition to the FAST product line and FAST is having a hard time meeting demand.  The ECU is supposed to be shipped by now and should show up in my hands probably late next week.

In the meantime, the ignition components have arrived.  Here is a photo of the E6 ignition box:



As you can see by the ruler, this is a big box of electronics.  I wasn't sure what this device was supposed to accomplish, but is a lot fancier than I first imagined.  It has multiple spark functionality.  Quoting from the FAST product description:

This E6 Digital CD Ignition Box features multiple spark functionality, meaning the engine will fire multiple sparks per cylinder while the engine is below 3000 RPM. The multiple-spark feature provides a more complete burning of the fuel in the combustion chamber, resulting in a smoother running engine and better fuel economy.

Apparently this technology has a positive effect on engine performance, but this description fails to explain how this improvement is achieved.  I did some searching on the web and came across this video that describes the MSD version of this system:

https://youtu.be/1aZ4qcz9KW8

It includes demonstrations of the difference between a stock ignition spark and the MSD version of multiple spark technology and it is impressive!

Honestly, I'm not sure how much of a difference this setup will make on my wagon, but I'll take a smoother engine and better fuel economy any day!

In the meantime, we all will have to be patient . . . .

Until the ECU and throttle body finally shows up next week.

Cheers, Edouard 

[nail lark]

I was going to ask if it used a throttle body . But looks it does. Is it a 4 port throttle body? Does it used knock sensors and a air flow sensor?

[texasekberg]

Nice set up you got there Edouard,
I put a FiTech Go efi 4 on my 455 in the black Skylark I have and just love the thing. I did not go the cheap route but put a Tanks Inc. tank with their in tank pump and sending unit, russel twist-locks and filter all the way.
What I really like about the FiTech is the lack of boxes for the brain and electronics (and the lower price), everything is built into the tbi unit. I am using the tbi for controlling fuel pump and the electrical fan for cooling (it also carry a full ignition module like the MSD6 so you can run everything from your hand held monitor fully adjustable) and of course totally self learning if you do not want to play around.
I will ad some pictures later today.
Br Anton.

[elagache]

Dear Nail_Lark, Br Anton, and mid-60s Buick fans of high tech,

I was going to ask if it used a throttle body . But looks it does. Is it a 4 port throttle body? Does it used knock sensors and a air flow sensor?

Hmm, not entirely sure what you are asking.  The throttle body is the same as is used on the EZ-EFI 2.0 system:

http://www.fuelairspark.com/fas/ez-efi-2-0r-self-tuning-engine-control-system-base-kithtml/

So it has 8 fuel injectors.  However, the system only uses as many injectors as it needs to deliver the fuel that the engine requires.

I can't find any reference to a knock sensor, so I don't know on that one.  I don't think it uses an air flow sensor though.

I put a FiTech Go efi 4 on my 455 in the black Skylark I have and just love the thing. I did not go the cheap route but put a Tanks Inc. tank with their in tank pump and sending unit, russel twist-locks and filter all the way.

I also went the "do it right" route with a Spectra Premium tank with internal fuel pump.

What I really like about the FiTech is the lack of boxes for the brain and electronics (and the lower price), everything is built into the tbi unit. I am using the tbi for controlling fuel pump and the electrical fan for cooling (it also carry a full ignition module like the MSD6 so you can run everything from your hand held monitor fully adjustable) and of course totally self learning if you do not want to play around.

Definitely also sounds interesting.  I'm suffering (believe it or not) because of technology obsolescence.  When I ordered this engine in 2011, EZ-EFI 1.0 was state of the art.  Today it is definitely - limiting.  I decided to stick with FAST products to make the transition as painless as possible.  We'll see!

Cheers, Edouard 

[GS66]

I've talked to lots of people on the Power Tour running the FAST system and it is reliable. They also give one away every year including installing it while people watch. Unfortunately I didn't win it.

[elagache]

Dear mid-60s Buick fans of high-tech,

Well it has definitely taken forever, but finally the remaining components of the XFI Sportsman Throttle Body EFI System have arrived.  I put my camera to work and captured these views fresh out of the box.  Here is the ECU unit:



Here is the top of the throttle body:



Here is the front of the throttle body:



Here is the passenger side of it:



Finally here is the driver's side with the linkage for the accelerator:



I have made the most important first checks.  Yes, it appears everything will fit in the engine bay!  The throttle body looked larger than the EZ-EFI 1.0 system that's there now, but it still fits under the dropped air cleaner.

You may have noticed that the ignition box and ECU units are - well - "very red."  I am concerned that won't improve the appearance of an engine bay with such nice looking nailhead green valve covers.  I had started exploring the idea of painting the bulk of the ignition box, but leaving the FAST logo and other critical parts in the original red.  Now that I have the ECU unit in hand, it appears to me that might be able to mask off the logo and LEDs and paint the remainder black so it isn't such a large swath of red to have on the fire wall.

I'm going to give myself the weekend to explore the idea.  Stay tuned!

Cheers, Edouard 

[GS66]

The red color will fit right in on the 66 GS nailheads!

[elagache]

Dear mid-60s Buick fans of high tech,

Sorry to have not caught everybody up on this project but . . . . well it was happening!

Well, to be perfectly precise things were seriously stalled until today but for a very unexpected reason.  My great painting caper ran into an unexpected obstacle.  The ignition box appears to have an anodized coating.  This is very strange because somehow they managed to get a painting defect anyway, but it definitely isn't easy to either paint or remove.

Adding to the issues was that the instructions that come with that box insist that it is sensitive to heat.  The recommend installing it the - passenger cabin - uh excuse me?  If it was sensitive to heat, an additional coat of paint might be enough to cause the electronics inside to overheat.  So my plan-A of painting portions of it black was now out.  No worries I thought, if I can't put paint on, then I'll remove some of that paint and expose the bare aluminum.  The effect should have been really delightful.  Alas, that's were the toughness of the anodized coating did me in.  I didn't want to use something too aggressive, just in case I would need to take advantage of the warranty.  What I felt safe to try didn't get any of the surface coating off.  So I was defeated.

If I could tone down the color of the Ignition box, it made no sense to paint the ECU unit either.  Both are going to end up on the back of the firewall.  Hopefully there will be enough space between the engine and these components to avoid too much clashing between the nailhead green valve covers and these red components - we'll see.

Since my end of things was exhausted, it was time to bring my trusty wagon over to Orinda Motors to those guys to do in the actual installation.  I went in this morning and everything was going fine until Greg (their classic car guru) started to look for the installation instructions.  There aren't any paper documents included with the XFI Sportsman Throttle Body EFI System at all.  I scratched my head and did a Internet search for installation instructions - no luck.  I was puzzled by this but honestly I had forgotten with the failed painting caper.

This afternoon, Greg called - "where's the instructions?"  I immediately remembered my previous failed attempt and contacted the dealer who sold me the system: Richard Nedbal.  Rich informed me that all the instructions are included in the help section of the engine tuning software - even the instructions to install the components!

Adding misery to this strange way to provide product documentation, I've been a Mac guy since 1988 and the engine tuning software only runs on Windows.  I might have a emulation software system to run it, but I didn't have a chance to try it.  Rich was a good guy and he extracted the sections of the manual that describe the actual component installation.  I printed those up and I'll run them over to Orinda Motors tomorrow so that the project can get back on track.

Still, it does seem a bit - cheap.  If you spend thousands of dollars on a state of the art fuel injection system, it doesn't seem to be asking too much to have a printed manual included.  It is difficult to work on a car without printed instructions, and asking the owner to print those instructions is . . . yeah, cheap.

Stay tuned, this is only the beginning!

Cheers, Edouard

[WkillGS]

Mounted on the firewall, it may see a lot of heat from the headers. Easy enough to check with a thermometer and a test drive.
I mounted a MSD box on the inside of my car, on the firewall above the glove box. Your air conditioning likely consumes that space.
The front radiator support is a possibility.
Wonder if it will fit IN the cowl area. Lots of airflow to keep it cool. The wiper mechanism will consume some of that space.